Tom, if I may ask......Have you ever read anything from Calvin?
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How Calvin helped create Unitarianism
- Thread starter Nazaroo
- Start date
Tom, if I may ask......Have you ever read anything from Calvin?
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Of course, you can ask... I don't have to answer but i will :laugh:
I have read parts of the Institutes. I regularly check out the transcripts of sermons from the Monergism site.
I don't have to agree with another believer to know that he has insights into the Scripture I don't have.
And I think youve been to 10th Presbyterian. I think you'd have to agree that James Montgomery Boice was a great guy & a solid theologian. I hope you do anyway because this Nazaroo guy indicates that we should do away with all theologians & just be proficient without any theological guideposts.... I would have to say he is probably young in the faith with little or no humility or respect for these people. Calvin, I surmise was probably the biggest & easiest target to attack because of this Servitus incident which should have been better researched before putting his foot in his mouth. He changed feet when he began attacking theologians in general. Oh well!
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I spent a year at 10th Pres and have a number of Dr. Boice's books.
Humility and respect for saved people who have differing views would be a good thing for all of us.
quantumfaith
Active Member
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Lies will not enhance your agenda. It was false when QF came up with this fabrication months ago and it is still false.
Try citing any of Calvin's works or letters to document that absolutely false statement.
humblethinker
Active Member
Can someone please present a 'proof text' (so to speak) of this being stated by Calvin? (something besides a famous quotes website.)
Nazaroo: Let me help you get this straight.
I didn't try to besmirch Calvin at all.
As far as I'm concerned his reputation was that of jerk
the day he conspired to murder a man who disagreed with him.
He discredited himself, so I have no agenda or job left to do there.
I did try to besmirch Unitarians, by associating their position
with their mistaken alignment with a murder and lying coward.
That seems to have failed, because you can't read.
I couldn't give a rat's tail about Calvin.
My war is with Unitarians [edit] who mutilated the New Testament.
But let me prevent any further confusion on this:
I don't attack Unitarians for their doctrine. I couldn't care [edit] about that.
My anger rests upon them for their consorted and deliberate attack on the Bible,
where they have attempted to remove some 200 whole and half-verses from the NT,
and where they have attempted to remove and obscurantize every OT prophecy of the Messiah.
For this, they are damned.
Even God can't save an unrepentant evildoer:
And they did not repent of their murdering, nor of their drug dealing (φαρμακειων),
nor of their fornicating, nor of their robbery.' (Revelation 9:20-21)
"...till there was no remedy." (2nd Chron. 36:16)
If thats not clear enough, no further discussion will help you.
----------------------------------------------------
Nazaroo: Perhaps this will be clearer:
I think, like most of the grassroots people behind the Reformation,
that people should read and interpret the Bible for themselves.
I would trust the Spirit of God before I would trust any theologian
to interpret any workable translation.
Corollary: [offensive statement removed]
----------------------------------------------------
Nazaroo: See this is where we differ fundamentally.
I think the Dark Ages was when [edit] priests "interpreted"
the Bible for us. Only they just kept it from the people,
because their own fraud would have been exposed.
You think that we still need "priests" to interpret the Bible for us.
So you are a Jesuit, and I am a Reformer.
[ Nazaroo, please post in grace. Don't be so offensive and rude in your language. Take time to read the rules posted at the bottom of each page. ]
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While it's true that all the focus is on Calvin, when everyone else felt the same way (including the Catholics, whom the Protestants were in the heat of fighting against), that precisely shows that problem being one of unbiblical power.
"undermining authority". If the issue was really one of doctrinal truth, then God is the authority. In this issue, the authority being defended is clearly that of man, through his institutions of state and state "church".
That's what really drive the desire to execute. And it was a total turnaround from Biblical times, when the true believers (including the Lord Himself) were the ones to be executed, and the currupt unbelievers were the ones to use the power of the state to do the executing.
Servetus' story was covered in the book The Hunted Heretic (Bainton), and it reads much like a classic martyrdom. What does that say to the world?
Hence:
The first time I ever heard of Servetus, it was right before I became a Christian, when I visited a Unitarian Universalist church, and their literature mentioned the burning by "the Calvinists". So they do use this as a defense of their stances, as much of the world has been rebelling against "all the horrors of Christian history; the intolerance, mean-spiritedness, etc).
Presuppositionalism, at its best. You're just wrong because our authority says so. He didn't even really argue from scripture much (at least Servetus aimed to). It's just that if you go against our doctrines, you're just a heretic and need to die; and this included the doctrines on baptism, state church, etc. (i.e. the Anabaptists were similarly condemned as well)
The irony was that he was not even really unitarian. His view actually more like pre-Nicene orthodoxy! (a là Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Tertullian; less symmetrical view of the Three). He did have some apparent adoptionist leanings (making him sound to some extent like a unitarian, and thus similar to Nestorianism), but even this he later modified, but because he still insisted on "Son of the Eternal" instead of [the extrabiblical] "Eternal Son", Calvin was ummoved.
So this was really defense of Nicene/Chalcedon "orthodoxy" (the historic Catholic "authority") and not [necessarily] scriptural truth.
And not only did they similarly level vitriol against Rome (whom they agreed with on all three of those doctrines mentioned), but even each other as well. It's amazing to see Calvin and Luther's "self-humility" in calling themselves "lowly worms" and such, but they sure didn't seem like they saw themselves as worms when it came to denouncing "heretics", and even each other; let alone believing people needed to be killed. If they believed they were worms, then they would realize they were fundamentally no different than the heretics, Rome, and everyone else they condemned. If those people deserved to die, then so did they! (And that's supposed to be the whole point of the Reformation. So this is perhaps why people are so hard on them over this stuff).
But it's like all the scriptural admonition to charity, kindness and patience that we are so familiar with now was suspended for all those centuries.
It's true that Servetus certainly lacked tact. He should have realized the bloodthirsty nature of all the Christian authorities at the time, and at least presented his case in a less confrontational way (like not accusing all Christians of Worshipping a "three headed Cerberus").
Good points....thanks Eric:thumbs:
WestminsterMan
New Member
I gave you the citation. If it's false, then prove it and contact the author(s) of the site. Take a breath dude...
WM
WestminsterMan
New Member
The Lord raised up a great number of Pharaohs through the centuries.
Where are they now?
Oh, yeah: The Lord God of Israel treated them like [deleted]-puppets and utterly humiliated them, then destroyed them.
Here's the short version:
Pharaoh: "Who is YHWH, that I should listen to his voice and let Israel go?"
Commentator: 'YHWH treats Moses with some patience. Not so Pharaoh, though it will appear that YHWH is patient with him. Final retribution will be delayed by the prolonged seqence of plagues, each plague purporting to give him a chance to repent. Why does God treat Pharaoh like this? Explicitly, He says to Pharaoh: (Exod. 9:14-16) that He will send him plagues, "that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth." Indeed, He goes on, He could have destroyed Pharaoh and Egypt immediately, but "for this purpose I let you live, to show you my power, so that My Name may be declared throughout all the earth." The answer is that YHWH is the One who will choose when Pharaoh lets Israel go. YHWH is the MASTER OF MASTERS, and His merciless manipulation of Pharaoh is a practical demonstration of the point. ...as the Pharaoh has exalted himself over Israel, so YHWH has exalted Himself over Pharaoh.' - Gunn & Fewell, Narrative in the Hebrew Bible, (Oxford, 1993, p. 86)
"I am the Eye in the Sky, looking at you, I can read your mind.
I am the Maker of Rules, dealing with fools, I can cheat you blind." (Alan Parsons Project, Eye in the Sky)
Who's next?
Form a single file please, on the left. Take a number.
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I like Alan Parsons Project also....ever hear " Wouldnt Wanna Be Like You"
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David Lamb
Well-Known Member
If your aim was to "besmirch" Unitarians, and not Calvin, it seems to me that the title you chose for this thread, "How Calvin helped create Unitarianism" is a misleading one.
Incidentally, phrases like "Unitarian slime", "because you can't read", "You are a Jesuit" and "Theologians spew horsemanure" are in my opinion totally out of place on the Baptist Board.
In my opinion David, you would make an excellent moderator because your very mature as well as fair & balanced.
God Bless you (also I would like to be like you):thumbs:
David, are you likewise appalled by these "gems"?
Calvin on the Anabaptists:
"Last of all like as a drunkard after he hath well belched doth disgorge the vile broth which charged his stomach, even so these wicked men, after they have detracted this holy estate which the Lord hath so much honored, finally with full throat they do spew out exceeding deformed blasphemies."
From the preface of Beza and Calvin's Bible de Genève:
"Satan has found as many translators as there are frivolous and impudent minds; and he will probably find even more, unless God give them pause before it is too late. If the reader asks me for an example, let me refer to Sebastian Castellio's translation of the Bible. . . . We therefore regard it as a conscientious duty to break the silence we have hitherto kept, and to warn all Christians against this man, the chosen of Satan."
From Calvin's Sermons sur l'Epitre aux Corinthiens:
"Nous en verrons d'aucuns si frenetiques, non pas seulement en la religion, mais pour monstrer par tout qu'ils ont une nature monstrueuse, qu'ils diront que le soliel ne se bouge, et que c'est la terre qui se remue et qu'elle tourne. Quand nous voyons de tels esprits, il faut bien dire que le diable les ait possedez, et que Dieu nous les propose comme des miroirs, pour nous faire demeurer en sa crainte."
Those who say that the earth moves round, rather than the sun, are demon-possessed?
Too bad Calvin didn't have a moderator.
Calvin on the Anabaptists:
"Last of all like as a drunkard after he hath well belched doth disgorge the vile broth which charged his stomach, even so these wicked men, after they have detracted this holy estate which the Lord hath so much honored, finally with full throat they do spew out exceeding deformed blasphemies."
From the preface of Beza and Calvin's Bible de Genève:
"Satan has found as many translators as there are frivolous and impudent minds; and he will probably find even more, unless God give them pause before it is too late. If the reader asks me for an example, let me refer to Sebastian Castellio's translation of the Bible. . . . We therefore regard it as a conscientious duty to break the silence we have hitherto kept, and to warn all Christians against this man, the chosen of Satan."
From Calvin's Sermons sur l'Epitre aux Corinthiens:
"Nous en verrons d'aucuns si frenetiques, non pas seulement en la religion, mais pour monstrer par tout qu'ils ont une nature monstrueuse, qu'ils diront que le soliel ne se bouge, et que c'est la terre qui se remue et qu'elle tourne. Quand nous voyons de tels esprits, il faut bien dire que le diable les ait possedez, et que Dieu nous les propose comme des miroirs, pour nous faire demeurer en sa crainte."
Those who say that the earth moves round, rather than the sun, are demon-possessed?
Too bad Calvin didn't have a moderator.
I agree. But the trouble is that some folks will not own up to lies.
You are confused (the only charitable thing I can come up with) when you mix up pharaohs with godly theologians God has raised up through the centuries.
Have not been blessed by the work of any theologian?
I agree EWF.