A question of headship and leadership

[12strings]

When we were first struggling financially after we had children, I asked my husband if he wanted me to get a job - maybe overnight when he is home with the kids - so that we could make ends meet. He told me that he would rather I stay home and he work an extra job because he always knew that when he came home, it was a haven. Food was on the table, the children were cared for and he knew that it was a place to go that was safe but if I worked, things would begin to fall apart at home and he didn't want that.

In public it is easy to show a united front because we ARE united. On those few things we disagree on, we don't usually air it outside the home unless we seek counsel from a few close, godly friends.

I think here we see a perfect example of why a "Yes" answer to:

Do women have the scriptural authority speak in public (in church or even in public forum such as this)?

...is not innapropriate

 

[JesusFan]

The gift is not conditioned upon the command being voided. The command is that women be silent in the church.

A woman who has the gift of prophecy (fortune teller) in our modern churches may be welcome, but I doubt that they have a place in the true church. For God's word is sealed. Nothing is to be added not taken away (see Revelations for this injunction).

Does that mean that prophecy is dead? All prophets must meet the two criteria of every thing they say agreeing with the revelation of God's word, and that the prophecy be true.

Because all God's revelation is given in the scriptures and it is complete, the only "prophets" of the modern age are false.

On a side, the promptings of the Holy Spirit within the heart that give a premonition of a situation or event, does not qualify that person as a prophet in the biblical sense.

prophecy gift also related to take 'word of the Lord" and expound it/aplly it to contemporary situations, and think that Gift still in use today by gifted expositors/teachers of the Word!

 

[agedman]

"prophecy gift also related to take 'word of the Lord" and expound it/aplly it to contemporary situations, and think that Gift still in use today by gifted expositors/teachers of the Word!"

I don't understand where you got this thinking?

Are you claiming that preachers and teachers are in fact prophets?

All true prophets had direct revelation from God apart from any written or previously known information. That is to say, a prophets did not present what was already revealed and even written down, but foretold what would happen in the future.

They took what was NOT revealed about the future and said exactly what the God in heaven would cause to happen in the future.

This is NOT the same as expositors and teachers of the Word.

 

[zrs6v4]

To the OP,

I think the lesson in 1 Cor. 14 is for women to be under the headship and submissive. The teaching for them not to speak only goes so far bc clearly they can speak at church if indeed they pray right? (1cor. 11:5)

Do you believe woman need to cover their heads to?

I think the principle is for woman to remain in their created order for there good and for the good of the men. I dont know specifics as to what Paul had in mind but I dont know that we can take that 100% literal as if a single peep is sin. I think the point is so woman dont begin to dominate men in the church. This can be applied today in this sense.

I undecided on woman teaching bc I think that may violate the principle unless she is instructing woman or kids.

 

[agedman]

Some take the head covering to mean that the woman needs to actually wear a scarf or hat. I don't.

The passage would seem to indicate that a woman shouldn't shave her head (some would say cut her hair short - like a butch cut) and that men shouldn't wear their hair long (unless I suppose they have taken a Nazarite vow).

The passage is very specific about the women being silent. That in the worship and decision making and service of the church - it is man's work.


Taking both Old and New Testament forms of corporate worship, there were areas of "service" the woman could perform. They could sew the drapes and clothing. They could give gifts of jewelry and other needs. The old and wise could serve as guidance counselors to the young perhaps hormonally excitable girls. And the women could sing in the public worship. The Scriptures indicate that in choral grouping the woman could sing - but not as soloists. There are other areas of service the woman could satisfy.

Certainly they could pray - in their hearts.

I would think that many did and that it would be something like, "Lord, you know how dim and dull the men are!!! Can you prod them to think like you and me?"

 

[Jerome]

service of the church - it is man's work.

there were areas of "service" the woman could perform. They could sew the drapes. . .

There are other areas of service the woman could satisfy.

Huh?

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

If service of the church is "man's work", why do you go on to say women can do such?

 

[annsni]

"prophecy gift also related to take 'word of the Lord" and expound it/aplly it to contemporary situations, and think that Gift still in use today by gifted expositors/teachers of the Word!"

I don't understand where you got this thinking?

Are you claiming that preachers and teachers are in fact prophets?

All true prophets had direct revelation from God apart from any written or previously known information. That is to say, a prophets did not present what was already revealed and even written down, but foretold what would happen in the future.

They took what was NOT revealed about the future and said exactly what the God in heaven would cause to happen in the future.

This is NOT the same as expositors and teachers of the Word.

Read Exodus 7 and note who God said is the prophet. What did the prophet do? Did he predict the future or did he just do what he was told? I don't see Aaron saying anything about what would happen but instead only did what Moses told him to do. Since God clearly said that Aaron would be a prophet, I believe that shows that it's not just "fortune telling" that makes a prophet but also declaring that which God has said.

 

[agedman]

Read Exodus 7 and note who God said is the prophet. What did the prophet do? Did he predict the future or did he just do what he was told? I don't see Aaron saying anything about what would happen but instead only did what Moses told him to do. Since God clearly said that Aaron would be a prophet, I believe that shows that it's not just "fortune telling" that makes a prophet but also declaring that which God has said.

You must have missed this in the reading.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, ..."

Seems that Aaron was not merely Moses' public broadcaster, but was directly told by God what to say and do, too.

It is also in that passage that when God spoke only to Moses, that Aaron did not speak but rather obeyed the brothers command.

 

[agedman]

Huh?

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

If service of the church is "man's work", why do you go on to say women can do such?

Ah, such is posting irregularities in the late sleeplessness of the night!

The thinking I was putting forth was that the handiwork of the women is not to be disregarded not diminished. But it is not the authoritarian work of the deacon, or bishop - men.

 

[annsni]

You must have missed this in the reading.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, ..."

Seems that Aaron was not merely Moses' public broadcaster, but was directly told by God what to say and do, too.

It is also in that passage that when God spoke only to Moses, that Aaron did not speak but rather obeyed the brothers command.

Yes, and God said that Aaron was Moses' prophet. Did Aaron tell Pharaoh the future? No. He told him to let the Israelites go.

 

[agedman]

Yes, and God said that Aaron was Moses' prophet. Did Aaron tell Pharaoh the future? No. He told him to let the Israelites go.

That is not what Ex 7 states.

God told Moses and Aaron exactly what to do and say before it was to happen.

Later in the same Ex 7, God speaks to Moses and Moses gave the command to Aaron. Aaron did not speak at that time, but did what God through Moses commanded.

 

[convicted1]

Do you feel a woman should vote?

At our home church, the woman are allowed to vote when it comes times to vote for our church officers each year. Church officers are Moderator, assistant Mod., clerk, and assistant clerk. So yes, a woman should have a say in who our officers are.

 

[agedman]

At our home church, the woman are allowed to vote when it comes times to vote for our church officers each year. Church officers are Moderator, assistant Mod., clerk, and assistant clerk. So yes, a woman should have a say in who our officers are.

Why?

What if she and her husband disagree on who should be chosen?

Does not the Scripture teach that as the head of the home, the man has the responsibility and the wife is to be silent?

 

[convicted1]

Why?

What if she and her husband disagree on who should be chosen?

Does not the Scripture teach that as the head of the home, the man has the responsibility and the wife is to be silent?

Well, it seems to me that you think a woman is taken to the water, baptized, given the righthand of fellowship, then placed in the church with a straightjacket, and a gag in her mouth? I guess the only place they can speak is in regards to what they are cooking for the dinner after church?


Now, I do not think a woman's place is behind the pulpit(1 Tim. chapter 3, Titus chapter 1), but for her to just set there, and not have a say in what goes on in the church in regards to all matters is wrong. She should have a say in who the church officers are in her home church. Rember, she is also under the teaching of that pastor, too.

 

[annsni]

Why?

What if she and her husband disagree on who should be chosen?

Does not the Scripture teach that as the head of the home, the man has the responsibility and the wife is to be silent?

Show me where the wife has no say in what happens in church from the Scriptures.

 

[preachinjesus]

Yep...this thread headed exactly where I thought it would...

 

[agedman]

Well, it seems to me that you think a woman is taken to the water, baptized, given the righthand of fellowship, then placed in the church with a straightjacket, and a gag in her mouth? I guess the only place they can speak is in regards to what they are cooking for the dinner after church?


Now, I do not think a woman's place is behind the pulpit(1 Tim. chapter 3, Titus chapter 1), but for her to just set there, and not have a say in what goes on in the church in regards to all matters is wrong. She should have a say in who the church officers are in her home church. Rember, she is also under the teaching of that pastor, too.

Then you disagree with Paul who definitely said that the women shouldn't speak.

I have no problem with folks being welcomed into the church, but it is the husband's position as authority over his home to introduce his wife and children. It is his responsibility to sit as responsible of the spiritual well being of the wife and home, not the pastor's. She is "not under his authority." It is for the family to listen to what the pastor says and weigh it in the light of the Scriptures, just as all members should (but usually don't) do. But, the pastor should have no reason to even talk to the wife of another man without the expressed approval and consent of the husband. He is the head of the home, just as Christ is head of the church.

Using that as an example, remember Job? The enemy had to seek God's permission to touch the living and lives of Job and his family. Christ is head of the church and the husband is head of the home. The church is the bride of Christ and answers to Him alone in all matters. The wife and family must follow that same example.

The woman does have a say in what goes on in the congregation. Just as we petition the God of Heaven through Christ our groom. "We come boldly to the thrown of grace" in His name. The wife petitions the husband the same way. What godly husband can turn down the godly wife's petition?
:tongue3:

 

[agedman]

Show me where the wife has no say in what happens in church from the Scriptures.

Already done that early in this thread.

I know you read it, didn't you?

Just because you don't agree with Paul's statement doesn't make it untrue.

In the above post, I mentioned the relationship of Christ to the church and the husband to the wife and home.

Does the believer go directly to the God of Heaven to tell Him what to do or how to act? No. The petition goes through Christ, and though we may not make it acceptable with all the groaning and mutterings, He presents it to the father.

The same example should be carried out in the assembly.

I don't know many women who aren't good at muttering and groaning, and the husbands usually put up with them. :saint:

Seriously though, it is not a trivial matter that is discussed on this thread, and to submit to the Scriptural authority as presented by Christ (for He is the very Word) is sometimes not what the fleshly mind would readily agree.

 

[convicted1]

Then you disagree with Paul who definitely said that the women shouldn't speak.

Well, the next time a woman sings in church with the congration(or solo), or then begins to shout praises to God for His goodness, then, by all means, go and tell her to shut up. :tongue:

I have no problem with folks being welcomed into the church, but it is the husband's position as authority over his home to introduce his wife and children. It is his responsibility to sit as responsible of the spiritual well being of the wife and home, not the pastor's. She is "not under his authority." It is for the family to listen to what the pastor says and weigh it in the light of the Scriptures, just as all members should (but usually don't) do. But, the pastor should have no reason to even talk to the wife of another man without the expressed approval and consent of the husband. He is the head of the home, just as Christ is head of the church.

Women aren't to be led around by the nose either. She is his partner, considering she took the same marriage vows that he did....he didn't do them for her. The man and woman are one flesh in the eyes of God in regards to husband/wife.

Using that as an example, remember Job? The enemy had to seek God's permission to touch the living and lives of Job and his family. Christ is head of the church and the husband is head of the home. The church is the bride of Christ and answers to Him alone in all matters. The wife and family must follow that same example.

Speaking in church, I believe, is in regards to preaching His Word. If they are to remain in complete silence, as you seem to believe, they can not sing, and they surely can't shout praises to Him. The woman is to not preach, neither take his place in the church body. But voting in the business meeting is not usurping his authority either.

The woman does have a say in what goes on in the congregation. Just as we petition the God of Heaven through Christ our groom. "We come boldly to the thrown of grace" in His name. The wife petitions the husband the same way. What godly husband can turn down the godly wife's petition?
:tongue3:

So, the wifey has to ask her husband how she is to vote? Support this with scripture.

 

[annsni]

Already done that early in this thread.

I know you read it, didn't you?

Just because you don't agree with Paul's statement doesn't make it untrue.

In the above post, I mentioned the relationship of Christ to the church and the husband to the wife and home.

Does the believer go directly to the God of Heaven to tell Him what to do or how to act? No. The petition goes through Christ, and though we may not make it acceptable with all the groaning and mutterings, He presents it to the father.

The same example should be carried out in the assembly.

I don't know many women who aren't good at muttering and groaning, and the husbands usually put up with them. :saint:

Seriously though, it is not a trivial matter that is discussed on this thread, and to submit to the Scriptural authority as presented by Christ (for He is the very Word) is sometimes not what the fleshly mind would readily agree.

No, you haven't shown me where the woman has no say in the church. Yes, you said that the woman should be silent in the church service (with regards to learning) but where does it say that she has no say in how the church is run? Remember that Paul said "hi" to Nympha and the church that meets in her house. I'd guess she had something to say about that church, wouldn't you? Paul wrote Philemon to a woman - so I guess she also had something to say about the church as well.