Blinding Their Minds to the Gospel

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: No, there is no difference in my statements. I think that you just might be confused

HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:

 

[Darrell C]

HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:

Imagine that...lol.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You see Darrell, I do not think like a Calvinist, nor one leaning hard towards Calvinism. :thumbsup:

 

[Darrell C]

You said: Stop. How exactly does our old nature die?

My reply: We die to our old nature by a conscious agreement to do so.

Okay, and how does that apply to this:

We are children of wrath, UNTIL WE DIE TO THE FLESH.

It is not hard, in reading this, to see that it is not understood that we are children of wrath until we are saved.

This indicated a legalistic attitude, which is why it caught my eye.

You then change this to:

No, we are children of wrath until we believe and Jesus saves us.

I can agree with the corrected version, but the first statement is in error.

No amount of wordplay or diversionary tactics will change that fact. The first statement is insight to the heart of your theology. Your condemnation of Calvinists betrays your hatred for those that you have no clue as to whether they belong to the Lord or not.

You are calling uncommon that which God has cleansed, for if you say that there are no Calvinists that are saved, you would surely be assumoing more than has been granted to you, or anyone.

You said: Let me explain my response: while we are in this flesh, we remain a part of a fallen world. Until our bodies are redeemed...we will not be free from sin completely.

My reply: Have you ever given up ANY sin for Jesus, any? Do you still live the same way as before you came to Christ? There is nothing wrong with speaking publically about sins we do and have repented of, so please be open to discussing it.

I noticed your comment earlier:

Whenever I hear a Christian loudly proclaim that they sin, I wonder if there is ANY sin that they gave up, not sins they never committed, but sins they actually gave up.

Now you ask me what sin I have given up for the Lord.

Typical. Of legalists, I mean.

My answer: not a single one.

While you snicker, let me just tell you the sin that the Lord, because He has indwelled me, has taken from my life:

Drug abuse.

Alcohol abuse.

Idolatry in a multiplicity of areas.

I could go on and tell of how the Spirit of God has greatly improved me in areas of anger, jealousy, impatience...however, in many of these areas He is still working on me, so I will not bore you with details.

Oh, and one more: pride. The more I learn of God, the less I think of myself, as God shows me sin in my life.

You said: You can say our "old nature is to die," and I agree. We are to put on Christ, and not make provision for the flesh.

My reply: So then why are you going on and debating me?

I wouldn't actually call this a debate.

Not yet, anyway.



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You said: Our association with Christ is not spiritually tied to water baptism.

My reply: Water baptism is when we make the outward pledge to God, to die to the ways of this world.

And lets look at why I made this statement:

we are to be “buried with Him through baptism into death.” We are buried with the water, and raised out of the water, raised to “walk in newness of life”

Now you say:

You said: Our association with Christ is not spiritually tied to water baptism.

My reply: Water baptism is when we make the outward pledge to God, to die to the ways of this world.

Are you to say that the first statement did not imply that one must undergo water baptism in order to be saved?

Did not the conversation begin with an inquiry of when we stop being the children of wrath? To which you post a verse that speaks of baptism?

You said: Baptism carries with it a connotation of association, such as we see here:
1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Did Moses personally, or even with the help of others, stop to baptise both in the cloud and the sea?
See what I mean?

My reply: I know what you mean. However, we are talking about water baptism for those wanting to obey God through Jesus Christ.

That is not the impression that was given.

It s began with this:

We are children of wrath, UNTIL WE DIE TO THE FLESH.

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

And now, you will give Romans 6:4 a context of water baptism?

You said: It would be better to say, "Look how baptism pictures..."lol.
But thanks.

My reply: You are welcome. Although, I meant what I said, picture how baptism looks.

Am I to take this that it is still insisted that water baptism is tied to our salvation.

And to clarify, I do believe that water baptism is a public proclamation to the spiritual event which has taken place in the life of the believer, but, it does not contribute to salvation itself.


Continued...

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell: You are calling uncommon that which God has cleansed, for if you say that there are no Calvinists that are saved, you would surely be assumoing more than has been granted to you, or anyone.

HP: What strikes me strange is for Darrell to be so blindly one sided in his remarks. Why doesn't he apply his logic to those, on this list, that have clearly inferred to refuse to accept the Calvinist notion of original sin, as being outside of the faith? Where was his rebuke to those?

No one presenting evidence against OS has even came close to suggesting that one cannot be saved and believe in OS, that I have read. Why would his statement suggest that which has never been suggested by the ones he direct his comments to, yet refuse to apply it to those of evidently like minded views who have literally suggested that absurd assumption that he chides?

 

[Moriah]

HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:

Thanks again, Heavenly Pilgrim. By the way, I love reading what you post.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You are too kind my friend. It is so refreshing to see so many proclaiming truth. Keep up the good work! :thumbs:

PS: Don't look at the faces of your opposition.

 

[Darrell C]

You said: We have a responsibility to put off sin in our mortal members, and not to make provision for the flesh, however, to think that we are "children of wrath" until we "die to the flesh," which implies sinlessness, as well as implies that one cannot obtain salvation until they cease from sin is something that I disagree with.

My reply: I only quote and speak of the scriptures. You just admitted to disagreeing with the Word of God.

Did I?


Colossians 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


Am I right in guessing that I "disagree with the word of God" because I do not believe that sinlessness in the life of the believer is is possible?

Or is it because I disagree that works are necessary for man to be saved?

Or is it because I disagree that we do no "cease to be children of wrath until we die to the flesh?"

Perhaps you could clarify.

You said: Though we err and sin, the law has no more claim over us, meaning, it's penalty has already been paid in Christ, which is what "you died to the law through the body of Christ" means.

My reply: You seem to be missing some truths about the law.

Do tell.

Not the first time I have been accused of that.

You also seem to be missing some truth about what Jesus does for us.

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. Did you see that? SIN, SEIZING THE OPPORTUNITY AFFORDED BY THE COMMANDMENT, PRODUCED IN ME EVERY KIND OF COVETING.

I know this must seem like reasonable argument, but, if you read this, it is the law that is in view.

Perhaps you menat to add to this? I would love to hear your commentary on what Jesus does for us...in this verse.

You said: Until we die or receive glorified bodies we still dwell in this world, and in our earthly bodies which have yet to be redeemed. Which is why Paul uses terms like "reckon."

My reply: You have a defeatist attitude about sin, this does make me wonder about your life since you have been dead and living by the Spirit.

You seem to have a preoccupation with others. And their sin.

But this was apparent in just a few posts.

It would seem you know quite a bit about people you have never met. Will you at this time answer my question?

Exactly how many Calvinists do you know? I don't mean on forums, but in your life? How many have you sat down and discussed doctrinal belief with?

You see, until you know what a person believes, you err to presuppose their beliefs for them.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You said: Notice two things:
1-believers are told to put to death their members (which does not speak of the biting and devouring we see on the forums...lol!), showing the need to do so despite the fact that they have received life in Christ;

My reply: Try a different translation for this scripture. The scriptures do NOT tell us to put to death anyone.

I guess if a different translation is needed for you to understand, I can accomodate:



Colossians 3:5

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.

Let me know if the KJV confuses you on anything else. It is my favorite translation, and since I have been using it for so long, most of which I have remembered has been in the King's English, and I have to admit...I love the accent.

That is humor, by the way. Spoken in modern english.

You said: 2-he distinguishes between believers and the children of wrath, which is a term never used to describe the saved, but the lost.

My reply: 5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.b 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices


Did you see that? You USED to walk in these ways.

Okay, I f I used to walk in these ways...I need not regard this command, now do I?

lol

You said: Sinlessness is an impossibility for the believer. I believe that we can live holy before the Lord, and progressively reach a higher standard of holiness as we mature, but, I cannot deny that by both the command of God for the believer to put to death the deeds of the body (which implies the potential in believers) and the fact the body is as of yet unredeemed, I do not believe that any man can live in complete and total sinlessness.
Unless he is in a coma.

My reply: 1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Well, when one is limited to a certain number of verses to make their doctrine sound plausible, I guess one could think this implies sinlessness in the life of the believer.

However, if one chooses to reach a balanced view of what John teaches, they must also include everything he taught his brethren:


For your benefit:



1 John 1:8-10

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


And for mine:



1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You said: Ah, good, another one that assumes. For the record...I am not a Calvinist. Nor am I one that builds upon his own doctrine by first tearing down those that they do not even know, much less know their doctrine.

My reply: It is not merely assuming. You defend Calvinism. You speak like Calvinists. So do not be surprised when someone sees the Calvinist spirit in you.

A "Calvinist Spirit?"

You read Peretti books, don't you...lol.

It is probably from growing up with a brother that has since gone to be with the Lord, who was constantly picked on. So, yes, I will defend my Calvinistic brothers, as well as my Pentecostal brothers, as well as my Baptist brothers, as well as my Methodist brothers as well...well, you get the point. I will not defend all the doctrines that are taight by those groups, but neither will I stand over them in the place of Christ and judge them.

And that, my friend, is both a Christian Spirit, as well as a red-blooded American spirit.

Are you so bold in speech when you speak to people in the real world, I wonder? If so, I have my doubts that these conversations go anywhere. We have been called to be witnesses, not judges.

You said: It is true that we confront error when it is brought before us, but honestly, in the time I have spent debating, those who hold hatred in their heart for those of differing beliefs will be the last ones that will ever reach anyone that is in error.

My reply: I hate false religion and false doctrine, doctrine that goes against the Word of God.

As do I. But I can still thank God for saving me and still recognize my weakness.

And that is what the Law will teach a heart.

That is what the Spirit of God will teach a heart.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

For you falsely accuse me of hating people is to go against the Word of God.

I don't accuse you...you accuse yourself:


I would not be wasting my whole morning and afternoon on people like you if I did not care.


Oh yeah...can't you just feel the love...lol.

You show me what is in your heart when you falsely accuse me, you will not nullify the truth, the word of God that I speak, by falsely accusing me, and you will not make me stop by your hateful words.

Well, it is true, "Out of the mouth comes the abundance of the heart."

Look, a little advice: instead of saying "Calvinists believe...", try, "Calvinism teaches..."

Do you think that this tactic has not been tried on me before? I am a long time away from the baby Christian I used to be, one who would sit and cry after those in falseness would say as a defense that I was hateful.

So this is an issue that has gone on for some time now.

I would say that I am glad you have stopped crying, but honestly, I am not so sure that was not the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps it might be good to revisit those emotions, and discern if they are of the Lord or not.

You said: It is like they say, "They will not care how much you know until they know how much you care."

My reply: I would not be wasting my whole morning and afternoon on people like you if I did not care.

This is a sad statement. I am very sorry you have wasted time on people like me.

But you're in luck...it is dinner time, so I have to get going.

I just want to help you to know Him better. For that, you call me hateful. The Lord blesses me for trying, and I hope that I am at least strengthening others who already know the truth.

Well, this is one of the great things about the forums, they are a place where the doctrine and practice we embrace can be tested. Sometimes we are corrected, sometimes we correct.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You see Darrell, I do not think like a Calvinist, nor one leaning hard towards Calvinism. :thumbsup:

I am a little disappointed, HP. You were at one time, a fairly worthy antagonist to debate with.

But here in my latest visit to this forum, you seem to do nothing bu play a true antagonist.



Proverbs 6:14-19

King James Version (KJV)

14Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

You realize, of course, that the Proverbs is in fact a part of God's word...right?

HP: What strikes me strange is for Darrell to be so blindly one sided in his remarks.

What should strike you is the need to constantly pat the backs of those that, like yourself, teach doctrine that has been over and over adressed, rather than a point by point discussion with those you talk about.

You have been given opportunity and enough to discuss this and other issues, HP, but you have declined. It is easier to make behimd the hand remarks (and this is what responses like this are), stir the pot, keep dissension and discord alive between those that otherwise might actually have reasonable and profitable discussions...without anger.

But you like that, don't you.

That is a dangerous place for one to be, my friend.

Why doesn't he apply his logic to those, on this list, that have clearly inferred to refuse to accept the Calvinist notion of original sin, as being outside of the faith?

What list?

And what faith is there that does not teach that "if you do not embrace our doctrine, you have embraced the wrong one?"

What faith is there that is not in error on some point.

Who is it that is flawless in doctrine?

THere are facets of Calvinism I reject, but far worse in my view are those that profess Christ yet preach hatred. Just not a representation of Christ.

And far worse than that are those that spend their time in sewing discord.

Call that a false accusation if you like, but I suggest you read the word of God posted at the top of this response, then go back and read you last twenty posts...then deny it.

Where was his rebuke to those?

I have no clue as to who it is you speak of. But that's the point, right? Vagueries are far harder to address.

No one presenting evidence against OS has even came close to suggesting that one cannot be saved and believe in OS, that I have read.

Did I say that? Please show me.

What I have said, and I might as well repeat it, is that this doctrine is a primary doctrine held by legalists, Judaizers, that they can elevate man, and demean the Lord Jesus Christ.

Perhaps that is what you mean.

Why would his statement suggest that which has never been suggested by the ones he direct his comments to, yet refuse to apply it to those of evidently like minded views who have literally suggested that absurd assumption that he chides?

Well, if you (after what, 8000, 10,000 posts) learned to quote, then perhaps I would know what it is you speak of.

I will ask you a question or two, for my own satisfaction, as well as for the benefit of one here that I believe you are being deceitful with:

Is the keeping of the law a requirement for salvation, and,

Can a believer live a sinless life.

You pat the back, wag the tongue, can you also answer a straightforward question or two?

 

[Moriah]

You said: Typical. Of legalists, I mean.

My reply: If you call obeying Jesus and teaching we are to obey is legalism, then I am guilty.

You said: I will not defend all the doctrines that are taight by those groups, but neither will I stand over them in the place of Christ and judge them.

My reply: Here are some scriptures for you to think about, while I continue to contend for the faith.
Here are some reasons, from the bible, to support debating.

Acts 9:29
He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

2 Corinthians 3:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope that it is plain to your conscience.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10

Paul opposes Peter. See Galatians 2:11-21

Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

 

[Darrell C]

Okay, one more:

You said: Typical. Of legalists, I mean.

My reply: If you call obeying Jesus and teaching we are to obey is legalism, then I am guilty.

Actually, you take more the position of Peter, if you ask me.

What, decided to drop the discussion about baptism?

You said: I will not defend all the doctrines that are taight by those groups, but neither will I stand over them in the place of Christ and judge them.

My reply: Here are some scriptures for you to think about, while I continue to contend for the faith.
Here are some reasons, from the bible, to support debating.

As I said, not really what I call debating.

Acts 9:29
He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.




Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.


Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.


Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

2 Corinthians 3:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope that it is plain to your conscience.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10

Great verses. Your point?

No-one dissuades you from debating. It is the hatred you portray that is unseemly.

Paul opposes Peter.

Love this passage. Shows the evident truth that a man does not have to follow the law for salvation.

See Galatians 2:11-21

Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Again. great verses.

And again, your point?

All of this to respond to...

Typical. Of legalists, I mean.

Now why I come to this conclusion, and you can correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am, stems from your statement as to when we cease to be the children of wrath.

While trying to change your statement, you say that which would be agreed with, however, you speak of baptism. Then use a verse speaking about spiritual baptism to emphasize.

Okay, one simple question:

Do men have to be water baptised to be saved?

 

[Moriah]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

That is excellent advice in your P.S. to me. It is amazing how well it works. I will always remember it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

HP: Moriah, the only ones I know with 'great numbers of teachers' would be found in what has became the 'orthodoxy' of so many of today's churches. It matters not where you turn, the local churches on the corner, the radio, TV, or your local 'Bible' bookstore, Calvinistic writers and teachers hold the title when it comes to 'great numbers of teachers.' Interesting thoughts this Scripture provokes.

 

[Darrell C]

Heavenly Pilgrim,

That is excellent advice in your P.S. to me. It is amazing how well it works. I will always remember it.

Too bad for you, HP, your ally has betrayed your need for subtile manipulation.

How embarrasing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

How's that Darrell?

 

[Darrell C]

How's that Darrell?

Oh, he's doing fine. Thanks for asking, though.