Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:Moriah: No, there is no difference in my statements. I think that you just might be confused
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HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:Moriah: No, there is no difference in my statements. I think that you just might be confused
HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:
You said: Stop. How exactly does our old nature die?
My reply: We die to our old nature by a conscious agreement to do so.
We are children of wrath, UNTIL WE DIE TO THE FLESH.
No, we are children of wrath until we believe and Jesus saves us.
You said: Let me explain my response: while we are in this flesh, we remain a part of a fallen world. Until our bodies are redeemed...we will not be free from sin completely.
My reply: Have you ever given up ANY sin for Jesus, any? Do you still live the same way as before you came to Christ? There is nothing wrong with speaking publically about sins we do and have repented of, so please be open to discussing it.
Whenever I hear a Christian loudly proclaim that they sin, I wonder if there is ANY sin that they gave up, not sins they never committed, but sins they actually gave up.
You said: You can say our "old nature is to die," and I agree. We are to put on Christ, and not make provision for the flesh.
My reply: So then why are you going on and debating me?
You said: Our association with Christ is not spiritually tied to water baptism.
My reply: Water baptism is when we make the outward pledge to God, to die to the ways of this world.
we are to be “buried with Him through baptism into death.” We are buried with the water, and raised out of the water, raised to “walk in newness of life”
You said: Our association with Christ is not spiritually tied to water baptism.
My reply: Water baptism is when we make the outward pledge to God, to die to the ways of this world.
You said: Baptism carries with it a connotation of association, such as we see here:
1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Did Moses personally, or even with the help of others, stop to baptise both in the cloud and the sea?
See what I mean?
My reply: I know what you mean. However, we are talking about water baptism for those wanting to obey God through Jesus Christ.
We are children of wrath, UNTIL WE DIE TO THE FLESH.
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
You said: It would be better to say, "Look how baptism pictures..."lol.
But thanks.
My reply: You are welcome. Although, I meant what I said, picture how baptism looks.
Darrell: You are calling uncommon that which God has cleansed, for if you say that there are no Calvinists that are saved, you would surely be assumoing more than has been granted to you, or anyone.
HP: I read your statements and agree with you. They say the same thing as I read them. :thumbsup:
You said: We have a responsibility to put off sin in our mortal members, and not to make provision for the flesh, however, to think that we are "children of wrath" until we "die to the flesh," which implies sinlessness, as well as implies that one cannot obtain salvation until they cease from sin is something that I disagree with.
My reply: I only quote and speak of the scriptures. You just admitted to disagreeing with the Word of God.
You said: Though we err and sin, the law has no more claim over us, meaning, it's penalty has already been paid in Christ, which is what "you died to the law through the body of Christ" means.
My reply: You seem to be missing some truths about the law.
You also seem to be missing some truth about what Jesus does for us.
Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. Did you see that? SIN, SEIZING THE OPPORTUNITY AFFORDED BY THE COMMANDMENT, PRODUCED IN ME EVERY KIND OF COVETING.
You said: Until we die or receive glorified bodies we still dwell in this world, and in our earthly bodies which have yet to be redeemed. Which is why Paul uses terms like "reckon."
My reply: You have a defeatist attitude about sin, this does make me wonder about your life since you have been dead and living by the Spirit.
You said: Notice two things:
1-believers are told to put to death their members (which does not speak of the biting and devouring we see on the forums...lol!), showing the need to do so despite the fact that they have received life in Christ;
My reply: Try a different translation for this scripture. The scriptures do NOT tell us to put to death anyone.
You said: 2-he distinguishes between believers and the children of wrath, which is a term never used to describe the saved, but the lost.
My reply: 5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.b 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
Did you see that? You USED to walk in these ways.
You said: Sinlessness is an impossibility for the believer. I believe that we can live holy before the Lord, and progressively reach a higher standard of holiness as we mature, but, I cannot deny that by both the command of God for the believer to put to death the deeds of the body (which implies the potential in believers) and the fact the body is as of yet unredeemed, I do not believe that any man can live in complete and total sinlessness.
Unless he is in a coma.
My reply: 1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
You said: Ah, good, another one that assumes. For the record...I am not a Calvinist. Nor am I one that builds upon his own doctrine by first tearing down those that they do not even know, much less know their doctrine.
My reply: It is not merely assuming. You defend Calvinism. You speak like Calvinists. So do not be surprised when someone sees the Calvinist spirit in you.
You said: It is true that we confront error when it is brought before us, but honestly, in the time I have spent debating, those who hold hatred in their heart for those of differing beliefs will be the last ones that will ever reach anyone that is in error.
My reply: I hate false religion and false doctrine, doctrine that goes against the Word of God.
For you falsely accuse me of hating people is to go against the Word of God.
You show me what is in your heart when you falsely accuse me, you will not nullify the truth, the word of God that I speak, by falsely accusing me, and you will not make me stop by your hateful words.
Do you think that this tactic has not been tried on me before? I am a long time away from the baby Christian I used to be, one who would sit and cry after those in falseness would say as a defense that I was hateful.
You said: It is like they say, "They will not care how much you know until they know how much you care."
My reply: I would not be wasting my whole morning and afternoon on people like you if I did not care.
I just want to help you to know Him better. For that, you call me hateful. The Lord blesses me for trying, and I hope that I am at least strengthening others who already know the truth.
You see Darrell, I do not think like a Calvinist, nor one leaning hard towards Calvinism. :thumbsup:
HP: What strikes me strange is for Darrell to be so blindly one sided in his remarks.
Why doesn't he apply his logic to those, on this list, that have clearly inferred to refuse to accept the Calvinist notion of original sin, as being outside of the faith?
Where was his rebuke to those?
No one presenting evidence against OS has even came close to suggesting that one cannot be saved and believe in OS, that I have read.
Why would his statement suggest that which has never been suggested by the ones he direct his comments to, yet refuse to apply it to those of evidently like minded views who have literally suggested that absurd assumption that he chides?![]()
You said: Typical. Of legalists, I mean.
My reply: If you call obeying Jesus and teaching we are to obey is legalism, then I am guilty.
You said: I will not defend all the doctrines that are taight by those groups, but neither will I stand over them in the place of Christ and judge them.
My reply: Here are some scriptures for you to think about, while I continue to contend for the faith.
Here are some reasons, from the bible, to support debating.
Acts 9:29
He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.
Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.
2 Corinthians 3:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope that it is plain to your conscience.
2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10
Paul opposes Peter.
See Galatians 2:11-21
Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.
1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.
2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.
Typical. Of legalists, I mean.
2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Heavenly Pilgrim,
That is excellent advice in your P.S. to me. It is amazing how well it works. I will always remember it.
How's that Darrell?