Featured Is Everything Predestined?

I agree with you.

If that is true, then God gives his sentient beings free will. Now I know that Calvinists will say man's free will was lost in The Fall, but I see no evidence of that. Weakened yes, but not lost. Man thus needs help in coming to God, and that's where I believe in what Wesley called prevenient grace, and the Quakers called the Light of Christ. In no way does God predestine, compel or force people to come to Him or stay faithful to Him; it is not His nature. God's nature is freedom, and he endowed his sentient creatures with freedom.

Calvinism casts a dark shadow over the character of God.

 

REALLY? You feel that way from your lofty vantage point do you? :laugh: Of course , your wrong & all you do is cast your own gloomy pale over Christian brethren all over the world ....but then again....ahhh forget it

 

Of course, I am right; Stevie Wonder could see that.

Freedom is not gloomy; it is glorious and a glorious reflection of the character of God.

Calvinist fatalistic determinism is what's gloomy. It makes humans puppets and God a puppetmaster.

God's character did not change after The Fall from what it was before The Fall. And God did not perform a spiritual lobotomy on man after The Fall and remove man's will.

 

John,

I apologize for the jab. It was uncalled for.

I was simply trying to respond to your post in which you seemed to be saying that since John Owen was not a biblical writer, then we have nothing to learn from him. If that was not was not the intent of your post, then I misread it.

If that is what you were saying, however... the point of my response is that it would be, in my opinion, an error to disregard the teaching or writing of all men other than Paul or Jesus.

However, I did intentionally word my post in such a way as to call your wisdom into question, which was mean-spirited. I hope you can forgive me.

-andy

 

Then your completely ignorant of it....sorry if that appears like a jab, it isn't. Personally, you really need to go back & study it because you are missing soooo much....may I suggest the book, "The Doctrines of Grace" by James Montgomery Boice. Its a good read & will explain much. You should seek to understand instead of criticize.

 

Oh, I do understand -- perfectly. And that's why I criticize.

 

Van, you have yet to show WHY it is logically necessary that if God knows something will happen in the future, then he has necessarily CAUSED it to happen. You have not proven that Foreknowledge necessarily equates to Predestination. You have stated that one means the other, but you have not proven your statement.

 

:applause:

Van wrote, "He [Skandelon] says God can know the future but that does not fix the future."

Van ASSUMES that foreknowledge = predestination which begs the question. If this is the case why does scripture employee both words? If there is no distinction in God foreknowing something and His predetermination of something (which is what he is claiming) then why even mention God's foreknowledge? Is there ANYTHING God merely foreknows in a world where everything is actually predestined? Of course not.

Why not just say that God knows everything and has actively predetermined some things and leave the rest to mystery? Why must we assume from our finite perspective that God's full knowledge MUST equal a 'fixed' or 'predestined' worldview? As explained in another post I think the 'eternal now' view of God's knowledge is a better theory than the linear concept of God looking down the corridors of time like a fortune teller. There are too many causal finite logical constructs hindering us from fully comprehending how God knows and creates. Why speculate?

 

I did read your quotes from Boettner, and while I concede that to be a common Calvinistic view, it is not the ONLY calvinistic view. The other would be that God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and knew I would sin, but did not predestine us to sin. Based on the knowledge that every person would turn away from him and that none would choose him, He Chose some to overcome their rebellious wills and turn them back to himself.

Niether Boettner nor you explains why foreknowledge must equal Predestining. He seems to take it as a given, just as you do.

 

-It seems the point of this is to avoid blaming God for sin...But what about God planning the murder of his own son? were those men sinning...was God the "author" of that sin? It certainly was his idea. If God ordains some great evil in order to bring greater good from it, then we as his created beings with limited understanding cannot say he has sinned.

- It only teaches Open theism if we accept: (1) your original premise that foreknowledge equals Predestining & (2) that everything is NOT foreordained. Neither of these has yet been proven.

-Here you have effectively saved God from being the determining factor for sin, but instead made him out to be something of a willfully ignorant Father who refuses to investigate suspicious behavior of his children: If God CAN know the future, but has not "chosen to know the future exhaustivly"...then he could have known about Adam's sin, and the child molestations, and the murders...but CHOSE not to know about them, and therefore not to prevent them. Then he is more like a Dad who knows his 14-yr old daughter MIGHT go to bed with her boyfriend tonight, probably even has the desire to and is very likely to, but since he is not sure does nothing to stop it.
-I fail to see how this solves any of the problems surrounding the existance of evil. Why is this option better than saying God knew about everything we would do, and "worked it together for good"?

John3:11 - Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
(Jesus is speaking here)

-I don't see how this verse says what you say it says, or how it is pertinent to this discussion.

 

Like I keep saying, you can't figure out God.

 

Sometimes, you are so nasty

John

 

I am sorry that i am not famliar with the book of "John Owen"

Is it really necessary to read other books by modern authors to understand the Bible?

John

 

John....must be my free will acting out! raying:

 

Also, you really need to study the difference between "your" and "you're"

It is quite different.

As is the phrase "I couln't care less" and "I could care less"

Look them up, it will help you not look so stupid.

John

 

And yes, you are nasty because you choose to be, not because God predestined it

John

 

You don't have to be familiar with him or any other particular person, but Sometimes modern and not-so modern writers can give us insight into scriptures by pointing out things we might have missed, or by drawing our attention to things we may have overlooked, or reminding us of things we had not thought of in a while...all things preachers also do.