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That still doesn't help, as "longsuffering" in the context you give is equally illogical. If man is completely passive, longsuffering is rendered moot, and the author included the wrong phrase.

 

not at all.......God is long-suffering.....he bears with or allows the wicked to breathe His air...until each of the elect sheep are saved...then comes the end.

Romans is very clear...just read the verses as written

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: the ungodly,reprobates

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
ungodly sinners who were elected before the world was

 

Icon, If you are said to be patient with you kid then clearly you are waiting for them to change while remaining loving toward them and desirous for that change. Yet, when applied to God you confound it to mean that he acts like he wants them to change, yet is unwilling to give them what they need to be able to do that. So, when God is patient in you view he is bearing (putting up with) something HE really controls? Senseless.

 

sorry, Romans coincides with 2 Peter and both are speaking of God's relations with the jews. You have presented what I believe to be a caricature of God with your comments above. Read Exodus to understand what true "longsuffering" of God entails.

 

paul is using the exodus account ...to show how now the gentiles are also coming in,,,,,,God is still long-suffering with the wicked.

skan...you are not reading what I or the text said

22And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction

just like before the flood....my Spirit shall not always strive with man.

Their are vessels of wrath...and vessels unto honor....
20And in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour:

21if, then, any one may cleanse himself from these, he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified and profitable to the master -- to every good work having been prepared,
elect ........non elect [must return to work for a few more hours...will respond later

 

Hint....they are not the same....you misquoted.....it is two whole different ideas.......you posted an unbiblical statement that is error:thumbs:[/QUOTE]


Iconoclast, I am going to say this as kindly as I can put it.

Are you alright?

I am begining to wonder about your mental "sharpness". Seriously, I give you a crystal clear direct quote from the scriptures, and you simply cant comprehend the clearness of it.

Are you on any medications that might fog your thinking to some degree?

 

AIC.......Count the words...

verse 9 has 30 words......your mis-quote has 15 words.....

Do you remember when Satan tried quoting from the psalms to Jesus???
he misquoted the psalm, completely changing the meaning.....

In LK 4 satan said:
10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

.
but here are the verses in psalm 91; satan left out the highlighted portions

11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

it changed the meaning from God's sovereignty and protection to ungodly presumption.
Do you see how you by ignoring totally the context.....and leaving out the phrase...TO-USWARD....have done the identical thing??:laugh: try again AIC..but do not follow the lead of satan...then say I am on medication!
Maybe I should take some medication after reading your recent posts:laugh::laugh:




AIC......30 does not equal 15:thumbs: I do not even think QF can bail you out mathematically on this one. The 15 words you put forth are not in 2 pet....and as a matter of fact,,,they are not in the bible at all,,,, as you have written them. What you have written...is in fact a contradiction to what 2 pet 3:9 is speaking about...see my response to webdog.

It is God's will that multitudes will perish justly in their sins.....but it is also true that in Covenant love and mercy....none of the Elect will perish , as God has willed that they all come to repentance.....and God's will gets done......

 

Read here...let me know what you think of the article;
http://www.bunyanministries.org/expositions/attributes/07_Longsuffering.pdf

 

Sort of like when God did things ostensibly meant to coerce Pharaoh to change his mind, but then specifically told Moses he would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't change his mind.

"What if God with long-suffering endured the vessels of wrath created for destruction"

IOW, such people who God knows will not change, still have to be given a chance, pro forma - as when the police in a stand-off give the suspect a chance to surrender, knowing he won't take it, but its protocol to do so. Does that make it easier to comprehend?

When the rich man in hell asks Abraham (or was it God) to send someone to warn his brothers he is told they have the Law and the Prophets. And the rich man says if they see someone risen from the dead they will repent. And he is told, no, they won't. Its just as given all the Pharisees saw in Christ - his miracles, and everything else - nothing swayed them. Whether it was they were too devoted to their own earthly power or whatever the factor was, someone that resistant is clearly not going to change - but they have to be given a chance - its standard protocol, and its the least that can be done, to give them a few years of merriment before they descend into eternal perdition, their eternal and true home.

 

Apostle Paul was showing two entities here, the Jews and Greeks/Gentiles. Paul stated that God was longsuffering with the "vessels fitted for destruction", because He knew they(Jews/"vessels of mercy) would choose to not believe, and that He would graft us(Gentiles/"vessels fitted for destruction") through faith in the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.


Paul was contrasting us, Jews and Gentiles.

 

Willis,

In the Ot Exodus account ...maybe Willis.....but look at the next verse...he uses 221-23 to set up the rest of the chapter

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In the NC...we are speaking of ....The Christian Israel....all those who are In Christ
This is exactly what Paul is explaining...they knew the Ot exodus account, but Paul uses that as a lesson to show how unbelieving Israel were broken off...God's elective purpose is now taking place ...like Hosea spoke of...previously gentiles were non- covenant people ...but now they come in.... in droves.

 

I agree. But it was y'all who state that the "vessels fitted for destruction" were the ones with no hope whatsoever(if I have misspoken concerning this, please accept my apology). Not so. The "vessels fitted for destruction" were/are us Gentiles. God was longsuffering(patient) with us, knowing that we would come into "play" by the Jews rebellion/unnbelief.

 

Again, distinction without a difference. God hardened Pharaoh's heart THROUGH circumstances.

 

Since Love it's self is a product of the will, man is simply unable to Love any other way. It is God's will, that man trully Love Him. Therefore the only way God could have man's Love, is by allowing Him the right to choose. This is why their are two sides, "both Evil and Good" we have to choose one or the other.

God can certainly save everyone, but that would be making the choice for man instead of man making it himself. This would in effect be a false Love. Make no mistake about it with out the freedom to choose to Love there is no real Love at all.
MB

 

You sound like Irenaeus.

 

So God is like a teenage girl waiting by the phone, saying "I do hope someone calls", and then is overjoyed when someone decides to.

I think rather that just as parents decide to have children and then their children have an intuitive natural love for their parents (at least as infants) that they don't have to decide to exercise, it just is - that's the picture you should be going for.

Man, maybe I need to find a different denomination.

 

So you understand that God has a greater desire than to see all men saved. So therefore we cannot use "God wants all men to be saved" as an argument against election. Even you have to admit that God has a greater desire. You say God wants to have real Love before he will save a person. That's a desire that's greater.

 

Romans 8:6-9.

 

Where is the Scripture that says we only love him after Salvation? Of course He first loved us, hence God doing everything for man so that he would seek Him "and perhaps reach out for Him". I don't know about you, but I loved Christ when I found out what He did for me. This love and adoration is what lead to salvation, not vice versa.