Election

[webdog]

Paul makes us ...as he includes the gentiles you are eager to exclude.....cmon WD...I know you can see it;
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


In the NC...we are speaking of ....The Christian Israel....all those who are In Christ....

That still doesn't help, as "longsuffering" in the context you give is equally illogical. If man is completely passive, longsuffering is rendered moot, and the author included the wrong phrase.

 

[Iconoclast]

That still doesn't help, as "longsuffering" in the context you give is equally illogical. If man is completely passive, longsuffering is rendered moot, and the author included the wrong phrase.

not at all.......God is long-suffering.....he bears with or allows the wicked to breathe His air...until each of the elect sheep are saved...then comes the end.

Romans is very clear...just read the verses as written

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: the ungodly,reprobates

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
ungodly sinners who were elected before the world was

 

[Skandelon]

Icon, If you are said to be patient with you kid then clearly you are waiting for them to change while remaining loving toward them and desirous for that change. Yet, when applied to God you confound it to mean that he acts like he wants them to change, yet is unwilling to give them what they need to be able to do that. So, when God is patient in you view he is bearing (putting up with) something HE really controls? Senseless.

 

[webdog]

not at all.......God is long-suffering.....he bears with or allows the wicked to breathe His air...until each of the elect sheep are saved...then comes the end.

Romans is very clear...just read the verses as written

sorry, Romans coincides with 2 Peter and both are speaking of God's relations with the jews. You have presented what I believe to be a caricature of God with your comments above. Read Exodus to understand what true "longsuffering" of God entails.

 

[Iconoclast]

sorry, Romans coincides with 2 Peter and both are speaking of God's relations with the jews. You have presented what I believe to be a caricature of God with your comments above. Read Exodus to understand what true "longsuffering" of God entails.

paul is using the exodus account ...to show how now the gentiles are also coming in,,,,,,God is still long-suffering with the wicked.

skan...you are not reading what I or the text said

22And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction

just like before the flood....my Spirit shall not always strive with man.

Their are vessels of wrath...and vessels unto honor....
20And in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour:

21if, then, any one may cleanse himself from these, he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified and profitable to the master -- to every good work having been prepared,
elect ........non elect [must return to work for a few more hours...will respond later

 

[Alive in Christ]

Hey AIC......you only quoted half the verse;
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance. THe bible never says this....this is a misquote
So as I said it is a misquote.....you still do not "get it":laugh:


here is your quote;
It is not my will that ANY perish, but that all will come to repentance.

here is the whole verse....

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Hint....they are not the same....you misquoted.....it is two whole different ideas.......you posted an unbiblical statement that is error:thumbs:[/QUOTE]


Iconoclast, I am going to say this as kindly as I can put it.

Are you alright?

I am begining to wonder about your mental "sharpness". Seriously, I give you a crystal clear direct quote from the scriptures, and you simply cant comprehend the clearness of it.

Are you on any medications that might fog your thinking to some degree?

 

[Iconoclast]

Hint....they are not the same....you misquoted.....it is two whole different ideas.......you posted an unbiblical statement that is error

Iconoclast, I am going to say this as kindly as I can put it.

Are you alright?

I am begining to wonder about your mental "sharpness". Seriously, I give you a crystal clear direct quote from the scriptures, and you simply cant comprehend the clearness of it.

Are you on any medications that might fog your thinking to some degree?

AIC.......Count the words...

verse 9 has 30 words......your mis-quote has 15 words.....

Do you remember when Satan tried quoting from the psalms to Jesus???
he misquoted the psalm, completely changing the meaning.....

In LK 4 satan said:
10For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

.
but here are the verses in psalm 91; satan left out the highlighted portions

11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

it changed the meaning from God's sovereignty and protection to ungodly presumption.
Do you see how you by ignoring totally the context.....and leaving out the phrase...TO-USWARD....have done the identical thing??:laugh: try again AIC..but do not follow the lead of satan...then say I am on medication!
Maybe I should take some medication after reading your recent posts:laugh::laugh:




AIC......30 does not equal 15:thumbs: I do not even think QF can bail you out mathematically on this one. The 15 words you put forth are not in 2 pet....and as a matter of fact,,,they are not in the bible at all,,,, as you have written them. What you have written...is in fact a contradiction to what 2 pet 3:9 is speaking about...see my response to webdog.

It is God's will that multitudes will perish justly in their sins.....but it is also true that in Covenant love and mercy....none of the Elect will perish , as God has willed that they all come to repentance.....and God's will gets done......

 

[Iconoclast]

sorry, Romans coincides with 2 Peter and both are speaking of God's relations with the jews. You have presented what I believe to be a caricature of God with your comments above. Read Exodus to understand what true "longsuffering" of God entails.

Read here...let me know what you think of the article;
http://www.bunyanministries.org/expositions/attributes/07_Longsuffering.pdf

 

[Mark_13]

Icon, If you are said to be patient with you kid then clearly you are waiting for them to change while remaining loving toward them and desirous for that change. Yet, when applied to God you confound it to mean that he acts like he wants them to change, yet is unwilling to give them what they need to be able to do that. So, when God is patient in you view he is bearing (putting up with) something HE really controls? Senseless.

Sort of like when God did things ostensibly meant to coerce Pharaoh to change his mind, but then specifically told Moses he would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't change his mind.

"What if God with long-suffering endured the vessels of wrath created for destruction"

IOW, such people who God knows will not change, still have to be given a chance, pro forma - as when the police in a stand-off give the suspect a chance to surrender, knowing he won't take it, but its protocol to do so. Does that make it easier to comprehend?

When the rich man in hell asks Abraham (or was it God) to send someone to warn his brothers he is told they have the Law and the Prophets. And the rich man says if they see someone risen from the dead they will repent. And he is told, no, they won't. Its just as given all the Pharisees saw in Christ - his miracles, and everything else - nothing swayed them. Whether it was they were too devoted to their own earthly power or whatever the factor was, someone that resistant is clearly not going to change - but they have to be given a chance - its standard protocol, and its the least that can be done, to give them a few years of merriment before they descend into eternal perdition, their eternal and true home.

 

[convicted1]

Paul makes us ...as he includes the gentiles you are eager to exclude.....cmon WD...I know you can see it;
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


In the NC...we are speaking of ....The Christian Israel....all those who are In Christ....

Romans 9:21-33

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: The vessels fitted for destruction were the Gentiles.

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercywhich he had afore prepared unto glory, The vessels of mercy were the Jews, God's chosen(elected) people.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Now you see where Paul shows that God calls both the Jews and Gentiles; one the vessesl of mercy, the other, vessels fitted for destruction

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Apostle Paul was showing two entities here, the Jews and Greeks/Gentiles. Paul stated that God was longsuffering with the "vessels fitted for destruction", because He knew they(Jews/"vessels of mercy) would choose to not believe, and that He would graft us(Gentiles/"vessels fitted for destruction") through faith in the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.


Paul was contrasting us, Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,

The vessels fitted for destruction were the Gentiles

The vessels of mercy were the Jews, God's chosen(elected) people

In the Ot Exodus account ...maybe Willis.....but look at the next verse...he uses 221-23 to set up the rest of the chapter

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In the NC...we are speaking of ....The Christian Israel....all those who are In Christ
This is exactly what Paul is explaining...they knew the Ot exodus account, but Paul uses that as a lesson to show how unbelieving Israel were broken off...God's elective purpose is now taking place ...like Hosea spoke of...previously gentiles were non- covenant people ...but now they come in.... in droves.

 

[convicted1]

Willis,





In the Ot Exodus account ...maybe Willis.....but look at the next verse...he uses 221-23 to set up the rest of the chapter

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In the NC...we are speaking of ....The Christian Israel....all those who are In Christ
This is exactly what Paul is explaining...they knew the Ot exodus account, but Paul uses that as a lesson to show how unbelieving Israel were broken off...God's elective purpose is now taking place ...like Hosea spoke of...previously gentiles were non- covenant people ...but now they come in.... in droves.

I agree. But it was y'all who state that the "vessels fitted for destruction" were the ones with no hope whatsoever(if I have misspoken concerning this, please accept my apology). Not so. The "vessels fitted for destruction" were/are us Gentiles. God was longsuffering(patient) with us, knowing that we would come into "play" by the Jews rebellion/unnbelief.

 

[webdog]

Sort of like when God did things ostensibly meant to coerce Pharaoh to change his mind, but then specifically told Moses he would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't change his mind.

Again, distinction without a difference. God hardened Pharaoh's heart THROUGH circumstances.

 

[MB]

So what you are saying is that God desires all to be saved, but has a greater desire to allow man in his will to choose him than to save everyone.

Since Love it's self is a product of the will, man is simply unable to Love any other way. It is God's will, that man trully Love Him. Therefore the only way God could have man's Love, is by allowing Him the right to choose. This is why their are two sides, "both Evil and Good" we have to choose one or the other.

God can certainly save everyone, but that would be making the choice for man instead of man making it himself. This would in effect be a false Love. Make no mistake about it with out the freedom to choose to Love there is no real Love at all.
MB

 

[jonathan.borland]

Since Love it's self is a product of the will, man is simply unable to Love any other way. It is God's will, that man trully Love Him. Therefore the only way God could have man's Love, is by allowing Him the right to choose. This is why their are two sides, "both Evil and Good" we have to choose one or the other.

God can certainly save everyone, but that would be making the choice for man instead of man making it himself. This would in effect be a false Love. Make no mistake about it with out the freedom to choose to Love there is no real Love at all.
MB

You sound like Irenaeus.

 

[Mark_13]

Since Love it's self is a product of the will, man is simply unable to Love any other way. It is God's will, that man trully Love Him. Therefore the only way God could have man's Love, is by allowing Him the right to choose. This is why their are two sides, "both Evil and Good" we have to choose one or the other.

God can certainly save everyone, but that would be making the choice for man instead of man making it himself. This would in effect be a false Love. Make no mistake about it with out the freedom to choose to Love there is no real Love at all.
MB

So God is like a teenage girl waiting by the phone, saying "I do hope someone calls", and then is overjoyed when someone decides to.

I think rather that just as parents decide to have children and then their children have an intuitive natural love for their parents (at least as infants) that they don't have to decide to exercise, it just is - that's the picture you should be going for.

Man, maybe I need to find a different denomination.

 

[jbh28]

Since Love it's self is a product of the will, man is simply unable to Love any other way. It is God's will, that man trully Love Him. Therefore the only way God could have man's Love, is by allowing Him the right to choose. This is why their are two sides, "both Evil and Good" we have to choose one or the other.

God can certainly save everyone, but that would be making the choice for man instead of man making it himself. This would in effect be a false Love. Make no mistake about it with out the freedom to choose to Love there is no real Love at all.
MB

So you understand that God has a greater desire than to see all men saved. So therefore we cannot use "God wants all men to be saved" as an argument against election. Even you have to admit that God has a greater desire. You say God wants to have real Love before he will save a person. That's a desire that's greater.

 

[Amy.G]

Since Love it's self is a product of the will, man is simply unable to Love any other way. It is God's will, that man trully Love Him. Therefore the only way God could have man's Love, is by allowing Him the right to choose. This is why their are two sides, "both Evil and Good" we have to choose one or the other.

This is what I used to say too. But something I've realized is that nobody loves God until after they've been saved. In our unsaved state, we do not love God. We do not want to please Him or obey Him. It's only after He saves us, that we love Him.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is what I used to say too. But something I've realized is that nobody loves God until after they've been saved. In our unsaved state, we do not love God. We do not want to please Him or obey Him. It's only after He saves us, that we love Him.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Romans 8:6-9.

 

[webdog]

This is what I used to say too. But something I've realized is that nobody loves God until after they've been saved. In our unsaved state, we do not love God. We do not want to please Him or obey Him. It's only after He saves us, that we love Him.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Where is the Scripture that says we only love him after Salvation? Of course He first loved us, hence God doing everything for man so that he would seek Him "and perhaps reach out for Him". I don't know about you, but I loved Christ when I found out what He did for me. This love and adoration is what lead to salvation, not vice versa.