Featured Human State at birth?

Jesus taught this in an open rebuke to the Pharisees, Luke 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

Notice the Pharisees and scribes the jewish leaders.

Also we see what John the Baptist tells us they would say in Luke 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

These two sons the Prodigal and the oldest represent the Jews as the sons of Abraham or children of Israel. The oldest was the Pharisees who as sons had remained true to traditions of the time and not been sinners and publicans. The Prodigal represents a child of Father Abraham a Jew who represented the publicans and sinners. Both sons were descedents of their father, as the Pharisees were sons of Abraham and so were these publicans and sinners.
Those who went the way of sin Jesus came and sought.

Jesus says a man had 100 sheep and went and sought the lost one, the woman lost the coin and swept till she found it. this whole parable is showing how the Pharisees felt they needed no salvation because they had Abraham as their Father. This has nothing to do with how a child is born in or out of being in Christ. It has everything to do with being a Jew who went into sin and came to Jesus as their savior.

Luke 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The whole Parable is showing that 99 lost Pharisees felt safe in the wilderness. The coin lost from a headdress is found by the light that shines on it, and the Prodigal comes home and the oldest brother who is still lost because He felt he needed no salvation gets angry like the Pharisees who murmured about Jesus eating with publicans and sinners.

So this has nothing to do with one being spiritually alive dieing and being Born Spiritually alive. It shows the self-righteous Pharisees and scribes seeing themselves as safe in the family and these publicans and sinners being in sin while part ofd the family, seperated (dead) by sin. When both sons were dead in sins but the one repented and came to the real Father the Heavenly Father.

 

oops................

 

This understanding would have us believe the religious leaders had an inheritance in the father's estate, which Scripture proves false.

 

The Jewish nation does have apart in the Kingdom and as Abrahams seed the Jews are heirs to that Kingdom that is coming. Not all Jews will receive the inheritence and the Pharisees sure believed they would. Jesus was rebuking them for that showing just how wanting they trully were.

 

Can you just address the topic and leave the insults out please?

Your claim that my view was not contextual was an insane absurdy of the type usually found in Calvinist posts. You insulted everyone's intelligence by making an unfounded and silly claim. Now if you would like to address my view, rather than sidestepping it with a dismissive charge, go right on ahead. Only truth stands in your way.

Next, we see webdog applying the statement to be absense from the body is to be present with the Lord to the OT saints. Now is this in context? Paul in 2 Corinthians 5:8 is addressing what happens to born again believers when they die. Now were the OT saints born again, i.e. had they been spiritually put in Christ? What verse supports that? Zip. Rather, the OT saints had to wait, in Abraham's bosom, until Christ died and became their propitiation, just as Hebrews 11:40 says. Only after Christ died did the OT saints receive the promise of being made perfect in the Lord.

Your view says Christ is not the only way to the Father. Fiddlesticks.

They perish if they do not go to heaven. However, eternal suffering is nowhere indicated for those who die before they know their right hand from the left.

I have provided the scriptures for my view. Everyone is condemned. No one ascended to heaven before Jesus walked the earth. The thief on the cross did ascend to heaven that very day. Therefore the OT saints did not go directly to heaven when they died, they went to a place of comfort called Abraham's bosom (see Luke 16:19-31). This is not a mystery. No one had ever gone to heaven before Jesus walked the earth, John 3:13, and since then only those who have been born again which occurs when God puts people spiritually in Christ. Thus the OT saints were made perfect, Hebrews 11:40 only after Christ died.
It is a lock.

 

Putting dispensationalism aside, that particular parable, if addressing the Pharissees of THAT day as Jesus was, leaves no other interpretation other than THEY held to this inheritance which was not true.

Remember, this must be taken in context of the other 2 parables and who Jesus was addressing.

 

The 99 sheep were left where? In the wilderness. The inheritence of the Jews is clear they will have that, the Pharisees and scribes problem was they never saw themselves as lost and that was Jesus point through out this. The Pharisees and scribes were lost and out ofthe fathers will. The point is the household is Jewish the Father in the end is the Heavenly Father who welcomes sinners into His household, the Pharisees and scribes never got the point. The saved of Israel will receive the inheritence but the self-righteous will never inherit anything of the fathers house, but they believe they will.

 

Wow...use hyperbole much? One cannot question your divine understanding of Scripture not being in context without it being an "insane absurdy (sic)". You do hold to an awfully high vision of yourself...

Um...are they spiritually alive / righteous? Case closed.

Completely irrelevant and majoring on the minors. The righteous (OT, NT) go to be with the Lord. Fact.

Hogwash (see, I can use cute words too For the spiritually dead Christ is THE ONLY WAY.

Now are you advocating purgatory?

Correction...you provided YOUR interpretation of the Scripture. YOU do NOT hold to immutable truth.

 

In what way was the "son" alive with the father before being separated because of the son's actions?

Just as there are more than one "child of God" in scripture, there is more than one state of being alive. We can be physically alive, we can be spiritually alive, and we can be separated physically and be dead to those we are separated from, i.e. the son being dead because of physical separation from the Father, just as physical death separates us from the physically alive.

 

He was a son...not a zombie.

 

Do you see the oldest son as never sinning and therefore never becioming spiritually dead because he was always with the father? That would then make scripture incorrect again when Paul says we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. The oldest never left yet you say that the youngest died spiritually when He left that would then mean there are some who need no salvation because they never left the fathers house.

 

Wow...use hyperbole much? One cannot question your divine understanding of Scripture not being in context without it being an "insane absurdy (sic)". You do hold to an awfully high vision of yourself...

Did anyone see a discussion of the topic, or just another insult.

They did not go to heaven, and two were not alive together with Christ, and three, obtained their set apart place through faith, not innocence. Case closed indeed.

And as promised, when Webdog is confronted with scripture that demonstrates his doctrine is mistaken, why those scriptures have no meaning. Just like a Calvinist.

Next, another evasion, Christ is the only way, therefore those who died before Christ did not go to heaven, and after Christ, only those who believed go to heaven. No support for the Webdog view has been offered, when contextually considered.

Next, just like Calvinists, we get a strawman misrepresention of my view. Anyone can ask such a question, i.e. does Webdog believe Paul was mistaken when he said the many were made sinners and condemned through the transgression of the one. Of course not, but such questions provide smoke to hide a weak position, and waste the time of those presenting truth by having to address falsehoods hurled their way. Calvinist tactics.

And finally, throwing up a dust cloud, Webdog says my "interpretation" is wrong, leaving aside the inference that his "interpretation"is valid.
But nothing I said was challenged.

I have provided the scriptures for my view. Everyone is condemned. No one ascended to heaven before Jesus walked the earth. The thief on the cross did ascend to heaven that very day. Therefore the OT saints did not go directly to heaven when they died, they went to a place of comfort called Abraham's bosom (see Luke 16:19-31). This is not a mystery. No one had ever gone to heaven before Jesus walked the earth, John 3:13, and since then only those who have been born again which occurs when God puts people spiritually in Christ. Thus the OT saints were made perfect, Hebrews 11:40 only after Christ died.
It is a lock.

 

Yes, of course the oldest son was spiritually dead, a sinner and thus not really alive when with the father. The claim that this story supports being spiritually alive from conception to volitional sin is ludicrous.

The reason they make this silly argument is they do not like what scripture seems to say which is if a child dies before they trust in Christ they do not go to heaven. But rather than discuss this in a straightforward manner they try to drum up support by ripping passages out of context.

 

But scripture does say that a child that dies goes to Heaven. David said he would go and be with the infant son that died. Either David was never saved or that child went to Paradise and then to heaven.

 

and the gates of Hades shall not prevail againstit[/B (HER)

The soul of Jesus the Christ was resurrected from Hades. His soul was not left in Hades/hell. The way the soul of him got there was through death. The gates of Hades death shall not prevail. Death
is the captivity that was led captive. Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the birth pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. O death where thy sting O Hades where thy victory?
The body of Christ, the elect, the church of witch he became the head of the corner by resurrection from the dead, die and pass into Hades, however death, the gates of Hades, just as was true with the Christ will not prevail against her. She the dead in Christ along with those who died in faith will rise first and those left alive will be changed and together will meet Jesus coming in the throne of his glory, The kingdom of God, inheriting the kingdom.

1 Cor 15:23-26 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy shall be destroyed, death.

From Psalms 68:18 thou hast received gifts for men; yea. Quoted in Eph 4:8 as: and gave gifts unto men.

These gifts come by the Holy Spirit (the Comforter) from God the Father through Jesus.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Why? Why will he not come? Because Jesus had to be given that promise before it could be given to us. And Jesus would be given the Holy Spirit only if he were obedient unto death even the death on the cross and if God the Father renewed him with the Holy Spirit (Which is Life) by raising him from the dead. The obedience of faith.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (of the Holy Spirit see V14) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Titus 3:5,6 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; (to Jesus) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

He hasn't carried anyone anywhere yet.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, ye may be also.
1 Thess 4:16,17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Is this not the same going, coming and being?

 

No, as the parable stops where it does...and like has already been brought up, parable are meant to convey "a" spiritual truth, not the whole parable to be taken as such.

 

What I gather you are saying here as this all seems to be mingling through is that either:
1. noone goes to heaven currently and that Paul saying absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is simply not so.
2. You don't see the O.T. believers having left the Paradise abode in hell.

Christ body went to the grave but you yourself say that His Soul wasn't left in Hades.

Our bodies go to the grave but Paul clearly states we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. Where is the Lord? In Heaven. So you evidently see believers of this age going to heaven but that the O.T. believers including Adam, Abel, Enoch, Noah and others still in paradise still seperated from God until after the Great White throne and entering the New Jerusalem.

Still doesn't mean that the infant son of David isn't still in Paradise with David and will not be in Heaven when you say they will be raised. It would also mean that the baby who dies now will go to heaven because or paraddise until it's body is raised.

As I said this seems to be what you are saying.
That or you see soul sleeping, not really sure what you are getting at.

 

To Sissy Amy.

Did you see this previous post of mine? Please respond if/when you havetime. :love2:

 

I was just stating the obvious. You hold a mighty high rendering of your view and insult those who question it.

No idea what this paragraph is saying. If any reputable attorney rested their case on something so incoherent he would lose his case.

Why do you bring up calvinists as a pejorative every chance you get? Your hatred toward them is becoming something of legend (which is what you appear to be in your own mind). Just saying something does not make it true. You presented no such iron clad proof.

You are a riot :laugh: The red herrings are flowing like a fine wine!

...and more pejoratives I don't believe Paul was mistaken...I believe you are. His words were inspired. Yours are too...by Augustine.

Are we having the same discussion? I've challenged Augustinianism and your love of it at every turn in this thread WITH biblical support. You just don't like that I"m confronting you on your error "like a Calvinist" would.

...and more eschatalogical science fiction about some mysterious "paradise" holding place that Jesus and the thief went to.

Lastly...learn the quote feature.

 

Adam was created as corruptible flesh, subject to death. Had he not sinned, which wasn't going to happen, he would still have to be changed. Eating of the tree of Life is what would have changed him. He was made from the dust of the ground given life from God the spirit of the breath of life and those two together became a living soul, that which accumulates knowledge, emotion all of the things which make us a being. When death comes, the spirit life returns to God who gave it we return to the dust from whence we came. Those who knew us remember us as that soul, that we loved or hated or whatever. The earthly house of that tabernacle returns to dust, we are dead needing life and a new house to live in.

We are born of corruptible flesh. We cannot enter, see or inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven?) as corruptible beings. We have to be born again. Converted as little children again incorruptible this time.

1 John 4 Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Did Jesus the only begotten of the Father, the seed of Abraham have to be changed?

Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.