Featured Perfect Knowledge

Well, I am often guilty of long posts, but thank you.

I don't know that. Scripture often shows God learning as we learn, such as the world corrupting itself in Noah's day, or when Abraham began to offer Isaac, or when God went down to Sodom to see if they were doing according to the cry he heard. I can't say I understand this, but I believe God is fully able to express himself. I cannot understand why God would make himself appear to learn in time unless in these particular situations it was true.

I believe at times God limits himself, as when he wrestled Jacob and Jacob prevailed. Is God more powerful than Jacob? Of course! But in this situation God limited his power. So it is very possible that at times he limits his knowledge as well. I do not believe God can lie or be misleading. If God said he learned something in time, that is what I believe.

It was an unnecessary jab, but it was not untrue. Calvinists often speak as if they understand God perfectly, they will say what God can do, and what God cannot do. So, when they see a verse where God says he learns in time, such as Gen 22:12, they say this is an anthropomorphism. I believe that is very presumptuous of Calvinism. As I said, God is fully able to properly express himself, if he says he learns in time such as this example, that is what I believe. I can see no purpose in God portraying himself as learning in time unless it is the truth.

Well, I was not aware this was a Monty Python quote, but if it was, I would bet it was a jab at Calvinism. Calvinists are pretty famous, even in the secular world. Unfortunately, they are known for portraying God as a monster (in the eyes of the world). Most folks cannot believe in a God who would create people for the express purpose of destroying them for his glory. It simply goes against what most people believe about God in their heart. Sorry if that is offensive, but it happens to be very true.

 

Note the lack of any positive contribution to the topic, just someone chiming in with yet another personal attack.

Calvinism is false doctrine and its defense either attempts absurd claims, sheer nonsense or questioning the character and qualifications of its opponents.

And the bedrock of Calvinism is exhaustive determinism, the closed theism view that God predestines each and every sin.

 

Did you see how we can believe God is holy, or say that attribute is an anthropomorphism. No. All bluster, but the fact is Calvinism likes to use big words to hide the obvious, they are simply nullifying God's word.

God changes His mind, not because He was mistaken, but because He is doing the contingent action consistent with His purpose.

Calvinism has been shown to rely on absurd claims, such as God elects family members to teach family values, but not because the family member was influenced to trust fully in Christ. Behold the absurdity of Calvinism.

 

Winman, did you say God can learn. But that is impossible if total omniscience is biblical. So when God says, now I know, that does not mean what it says, God really knew beforehand. This verse cannot mean what it says. Maybe it is an anthropomorphism. I think I understand, if a verse says something about God that conflicts with Calvinist doctrine, call it a big word and say it does not mean what it says. How about calling it a whopper, or God was simply mistaken. We cannot accept what scripture says if it conflicts with widely accepted manmade doctrine.

 

God already knows ALl that can possible be known///

ONLY time God had to learn was Incarnation as jesus, as the Son of God allowed himself to grow up and experience life as we have too, but God the father/Spirit still were all knowing!

 

is your God bound in time, does He really not know certain things until they actually happen?

 

Could Jacob wrestle God and prevail over God? The scriptures say he did.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Is God more powerful than Jacob? Of course! But in this instance Jacob prevailed over God. So obviously God must limit his power at times. Likewise, perhaps he limits his knowledge at times as he sees fit.

You guys all say who God is and who he is not, and what he can do and what he cannot do, I make no such presumption, I simply believe the scriptures for what they say. If God said "now I know" as he did in Gen 22:12, I believe it.

You fellas have to argue God is a liar, or misleading at least, I simply believe the word of God for what it says.

 

God has to know all things , as He already has determined the final result in the case of the new heavens and new earth!

he has fixed the times of nations, leaders, war etc....

 

Gee, you mean we should not rewrite verse after verse and redefine word after word to twist scripture to what we want it to say? You are sounding like you actually believe we should base our doctrine on what it actually says. But that would mean these doctrines from the dark ages should be tossed on the dust bin of history. Now there is an idea!

 

that is what the calvinists do, as we look to the Bible for the doctrines of God, not based upon our own presumptions, such as God being unable to fully know the future, or that God sometimes learns on the fly!

 

Exodus 33:19-23
19. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

In Genesis 32:30 Jacob/Israel says:for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

In Exodus33:20 God says: Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

So tell us all Winman which one do you believe Jacob or God?

Then what about the Apostle Paul who writes:

1 Timothy 6:16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

 

It isn't either/or....it's both. Jacob would not have stated: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. If he did not already assume the truth of: for there shall no man see me, and live.

 

Yes, God himself said no man should see him and live, yet we are told Moses spoke to God face to face and lived.

Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

The scriptures do not lie nor contradict themselves, no man can look on God and live, yet Moses spoke to God face to face and lived. How can this be?

I personally believe God sat aside some of his attributes such as his power and glory when he spoke to man, else men would have fallen dead on the spot. Likewise, perhaps God sat aside his omniscience when he spoke to man, therefore God could honestly ask where Abel was, or tell Abraham, "for NOW I know that thou fearest God".

But to say God didn't mean what he says, or to say Exo 33:11 is not really saying Moses spoke to God face to face is to call God a liar.

 

Bible states that NONE has EVER seen God the father as he really is, but that God has made Himself known/revealed thru His Son Jesus!

There was jesus in form of the Angel of the Lord in ot, and Moses talked to god 'face to face" was a collectqual way to express had direct conservation with God, NOT that Moses saw God in his fullness!

 

Walking the Talk

No one found TULI in the bible, they read it into the bible based on presumptions. God desires all men to be saved is clear, but the Calvinist presumption requires it be understood as God desires Elect men to be saved. Or "all kinds of men" or so forth and so on.

Scripture says "now I know" but Calvinists claim what this really means is "I knew already." On and on we could go.
The dark ages are loaded with examples of men taking scripture too far, past what is said and building doctrine on extrapolations. And when further study revealed these extrapolations conflicted with many passages, rather than modify, i.e. reform, the doctrine, instead the tools of nullification were unleashed upon God's divine revelation.

 

I think that its better and easier to bypass the reformers in a sense and go back into the bibcal etxts themselves, as they do seem to support DoG...

Think problem is that even with the revelation from the Lord, being finite minded, just hard to get a full grasp on the entire dealings of God with man!