Perfect Knowledge

[Winman]

Thanks winman, for writing a short post I can respond to...had to sift out all those super-long posts on this thread.

Well, I am often guilty of long posts, but thank you.

-Would you at least admit that in each of these case...God KNEW he was going to change his mind?

I don't know that. Scripture often shows God learning as we learn, such as the world corrupting itself in Noah's day, or when Abraham began to offer Isaac, or when God went down to Sodom to see if they were doing according to the cry he heard. I can't say I understand this, but I believe God is fully able to express himself. I cannot understand why God would make himself appear to learn in time unless in these particular situations it was true.

I believe at times God limits himself, as when he wrestled Jacob and Jacob prevailed. Is God more powerful than Jacob? Of course! But in this situation God limited his power. So it is very possible that at times he limits his knowledge as well. I do not believe God can lie or be misleading. If God said he learned something in time, that is what I believe.

Unnecessary jab and Untrue. The God of Calvinistic doctrine simply says that and all-knowing God has no real reason to change his mind...not in the way we humans do...because no turn of event surprises him. We would simply say God chose to create the earth in a certain way, knowing full well all the implications of that...and that once his chosen course of action was made, there is no new information that God later learns that necessitates a change in plans.
-So when Ninevah was rebelling, God's good and right attitude was to draw near with judgement...When they repented and turned to God, God's good and right attitued toward such repentance is forgiveness. But God KNEW he was going to forgive them! So you can call it repentance (like scripture does) but we need to understand it is not a change of mind like humans make, based on new information previously unknown.

Think about the following scenarios and tell me which one sounds better:
1. God makes a plan, then based on actions of people, he makes a new, altered plan. This God is not omniscient, or he would have simply made the new plan in the first place.

2. God know all, so no actions of people will cause him to change his plan...but since we don't want to say God is locked in a box...we allow God to change his plans based solely on his own will. This God is all-knowing, but is not unchanging, and therefore cannot be trusted to one day radically alter his plans for the world.

3. God knows all, so he makes plans for the world, knowing full well the outcome of those plans, how people will respond to those plans, and what his good and right response to those people will be... Can such a god really be said to change his mind...We can use those words, but when used of God, they do not mean the same thing as when we use them of people.

It was an unnecessary jab, but it was not untrue. Calvinists often speak as if they understand God perfectly, they will say what God can do, and what God cannot do. So, when they see a verse where God says he learns in time, such as Gen 22:12, they say this is an anthropomorphism. I believe that is very presumptuous of Calvinism. As I said, God is fully able to properly express himself, if he says he learns in time such as this example, that is what I believe. I can see no purpose in God portraying himself as learning in time unless it is the truth.

I'm glad we cleared that up. :smilewinkgrin:

Well, I was not aware this was a Monty Python quote, but if it was, I would bet it was a jab at Calvinism. Calvinists are pretty famous, even in the secular world. Unfortunately, they are known for portraying God as a monster (in the eyes of the world). Most folks cannot believe in a God who would create people for the express purpose of destroying them for his glory. It simply goes against what most people believe about God in their heart. Sorry if that is offensive, but it happens to be very true.

 

[Van]

Sine you brought it up, I will say that Calvinists aren't the only ones who do this to you. That is just a reflection of the way you interact with others on this board.

Note the lack of any positive contribution to the topic, just someone chiming in with yet another personal attack.

Calvinism is false doctrine and its defense either attempts absurd claims, sheer nonsense or questioning the character and qualifications of its opponents.

And the bedrock of Calvinism is exhaustive determinism, the closed theism view that God predestines each and every sin.

 

[MorseOp]

I don't know that. Scripture often shows God learning as we learn...

Wow. I mean, wow! You really do deny that God is omniscient. At first I honestly thought it was just a deficiency in doctrine. I never dreamed you would actually deny God's omniscience. This is staggering. Really. God learns as we learn. And Calvinism is ludicrous according to you.

 

[MorseOp]

Behold the defense of the false doctrine of Calvinism. Not even one verse cited to defend a TULI point. But plenty of the usual tactic of questioning my character and qualifications.

Scripture references in the post you quoted? No. Scripture references and commentary in previous posts on the same subject? Plenty of them. You are either too lazy to cite them or too disingenuous to admit they exist.

Usual tactic in questioning your character and qualifications? If questioning your character is become a "usual tactic" then maybe you should consider that it is an accurate assessment of how you present yourself.

 

[MorseOp]

Just what are the attributes of God? Is He love? Or is that an anthropomorphism?

God is holy
God is love
God is just
God is gracious
God is merciful
God is sovereign
God is omnipresent
God is omnipotent
God is transcendent
God is omniscient
God is immutable
God is eternal

These are just a few of his many attributes. So, your point is?

If we go through the Bible and nullify every verse or passage that says something other than the doctrine we subscribe to, do we believe in God or in ourselves?

Specious.

Scripture uses many different figures of speech. It can be literal or metaphorical. It can utilize anthropomorphisms and simile. It also thematic. Understanding the nature of God or the nature of the Holy Spirit helps to understand certain passages. You are attempting to make an appeal to the literal interpretation of a passage while also wanting the flexibility to call some passages symbolic (i.e. Jesus is a door or a lamb). You cannot have it both ways unless you are willing to admit that the Bible contains all these different grammatical parts and display a willingness to interact with them.

Here we have Calvinism again misrepresenting an actual truth. Sometimes the bible uses a figuratively illustration, such as God's eyes are everywhere. Now God does not have physical eyes, so that is an actual anthropomorphism, attributing to God physical features. But does this mean the idea being illustrated in not true, that God "sees" everything, even what is hidden in our heart? Nope, of course not.

Listen to your own words!

So the misrepresentation is that when scripture uses an anthropomorphism, we can ignore what is being taught about God.

No. You interpret what is being taught about God based on what the anthropomorphism, or any other figure of speech, conveys.

 

[Van]

Did you see how we can believe God is holy, or say that attribute is an anthropomorphism. No. All bluster, but the fact is Calvinism likes to use big words to hide the obvious, they are simply nullifying God's word.

God changes His mind, not because He was mistaken, but because He is doing the contingent action consistent with His purpose.

Calvinism has been shown to rely on absurd claims, such as God elects family members to teach family values, but not because the family member was influenced to trust fully in Christ. Behold the absurdity of Calvinism.

 

[Van]

Winman, did you say God can learn. But that is impossible if total omniscience is biblical. So when God says, now I know, that does not mean what it says, God really knew beforehand. This verse cannot mean what it says. Maybe it is an anthropomorphism. I think I understand, if a verse says something about God that conflicts with Calvinist doctrine, call it a big word and say it does not mean what it says. How about calling it a whopper, or God was simply mistaken. We cannot accept what scripture says if it conflicts with widely accepted manmade doctrine.

 

[Yeshua1]

Winman, did you say God can learn. But that is impossible if total omniscience is biblical. So when God says, now I know, that does not mean what it says, God really knew beforehand. This verse cannot mean what it says. Maybe it is an anthropomorphism. I think I understand, if a verse says something about God that conflicts with Calvinist doctrine, call it a big word and say it does not mean what it says. How about calling it a whopper, or God was simply mistaken. We cannot accept what scripture says if it conflicts with widely accepted manmade doctrine.

God already knows ALl that can possible be known///

ONLY time God had to learn was Incarnation as jesus, as the Son of God allowed himself to grow up and experience life as we have too, but God the father/Spirit still were all knowing!

 

[Yeshua1]

Did you see how we can believe God is holy, or say that attribute is an anthropomorphism. No. All bluster, but the fact is Calvinism likes to use big words to hide the obvious, they are simply nullifying God's word.

God changes His mind, not because He was mistaken, but because He is doing the contingent action consistent with His purpose.

Calvinism has been shown to rely on absurd claims, such as God elects family members to teach family values, but not because the family member was influenced to trust fully in Christ. Behold the absurdity of Calvinism.

is your God bound in time, does He really not know certain things until they actually happen?

 

[Winman]

Winman, did you say God can learn. But that is impossible if total omniscience is biblical. So when God says, now I know, that does not mean what it says, God really knew beforehand. This verse cannot mean what it says. Maybe it is an anthropomorphism. I think I understand, if a verse says something about God that conflicts with Calvinist doctrine, call it a big word and say it does not mean what it says. How about calling it a whopper, or God was simply mistaken. We cannot accept what scripture says if it conflicts with widely accepted manmade doctrine.

Could Jacob wrestle God and prevail over God? The scriptures say he did.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Is God more powerful than Jacob? Of course! But in this instance Jacob prevailed over God. So obviously God must limit his power at times. Likewise, perhaps he limits his knowledge at times as he sees fit.

You guys all say who God is and who he is not, and what he can do and what he cannot do, I make no such presumption, I simply believe the scriptures for what they say. If God said "now I know" as he did in Gen 22:12, I believe it.

You fellas have to argue God is a liar, or misleading at least, I simply believe the word of God for what it says.

 

[Yeshua1]

Could Jacob wrestle God and prevail over God? The scriptures say he did.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Is God more powerful than Jacob? Of course! But in this instance Jacob prevailed over God. So obviously God must limit his power at times. Likewise, perhaps he limits his knowledge at times as he sees fit.

You guys all say who God is and who he is not, and what he can do and what he cannot do, I make no such presumption, I simply believe the scriptures for what they say. If God said "now I know" as he did in Gen 22:12, I believe it.

You fellas have to argue God is a liar, or misleading at least, I simply believe the word of God for what it says.

God has to know all things , as He already has determined the final result in the case of the new heavens and new earth!

he has fixed the times of nations, leaders, war etc....

 

[Van]

Could Jacob wrestle God and prevail over God? The scriptures say he did.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Is God more powerful than Jacob? Of course! But in this instance Jacob prevailed over God. So obviously God must limit his power at times. Likewise, perhaps he limits his knowledge at times as he sees fit.

You guys all say who God is and who he is not, and what he can do and what he cannot do, I make no such presumption, I simply believe the scriptures for what they say. If God said "now I know" as he did in Gen 22:12, I believe it.

You fellas have to argue God is a liar, or misleading at least, I simply believe the word of God for what it says.

Gee, you mean we should not rewrite verse after verse and redefine word after word to twist scripture to what we want it to say? You are sounding like you actually believe we should base our doctrine on what it actually says. But that would mean these doctrines from the dark ages should be tossed on the dust bin of history. Now there is an idea!

 

[Yeshua1]

Gee, you mean we should not rewrite verse after verse and redefine word after word to twist scripture to what we want it to say? You are sounding like you actually believe we should base our doctrine on what it actually says. But that would mean these doctrines from the dark ages should be tossed on the dust bin of history. Now there is an idea!

that is what the calvinists do, as we look to the Bible for the doctrines of God, not based upon our own presumptions, such as God being unable to fully know the future, or that God sometimes learns on the fly!

 

[OldRegular]

Could Jacob wrestle God and prevail over God? The scriptures say he did.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Is God more powerful than Jacob? Of course! But in this instance Jacob prevailed over God. So obviously God must limit his power at times. Likewise, perhaps he limits his knowledge at times as he sees fit.

You guys all say who God is and who he is not, and what he can do and what he cannot do, I make no such presumption, I simply believe the scriptures for what they say. If God said "now I know" as he did in Gen 22:12, I believe it.

You fellas have to argue God is a liar, or misleading at least, I simply believe the word of God for what it says.

Exodus 33:19-23
19. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

In Genesis 32:30 Jacob/Israel says:for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

In Exodus33:20 God says: Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

So tell us all Winman which one do you believe Jacob or God?

Then what about the Apostle Paul who writes:

1 Timothy 6:16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

So tell us all Winman which one do you believe Jacob or God?

It isn't either/or....it's both. Jacob would not have stated: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. If he did not already assume the truth of: for there shall no man see me, and live.

 

[Winman]

It isn't either/or....it's both. Jacob would not have stated: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. If he did not already assume the truth of: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Yes, God himself said no man should see him and live, yet we are told Moses spoke to God face to face and lived.

Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

The scriptures do not lie nor contradict themselves, no man can look on God and live, yet Moses spoke to God face to face and lived. How can this be?

I personally believe God sat aside some of his attributes such as his power and glory when he spoke to man, else men would have fallen dead on the spot. Likewise, perhaps God sat aside his omniscience when he spoke to man, therefore God could honestly ask where Abel was, or tell Abraham, "for NOW I know that thou fearest God".

But to say God didn't mean what he says, or to say Exo 33:11 is not really saying Moses spoke to God face to face is to call God a liar.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, God himself said no man should see him and live, yet we are told Moses spoke to God face to face and lived.

Exo 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

The scriptures do not lie nor contradict themselves, no man can look on God and live, yet Moses spoke to God face to face and lived. How can this be?

I personally believe God sat aside some of his attributes such as his power and glory when he spoke to man, else men would have fallen dead on the spot. Likewise, perhaps God sat aside his omniscience when he spoke to man, therefore God could honestly ask where Abel was, or tell Abraham, "for NOW I know that thou fearest God".

But to say God didn't mean what he says, or to say Exo 33:11 is not really saying Moses spoke to God face to face is to call God a liar.

Bible states that NONE has EVER seen God the father as he really is, but that God has made Himself known/revealed thru His Son Jesus!

There was jesus in form of the Angel of the Lord in ot, and Moses talked to god 'face to face" was a collectqual way to express had direct conservation with God, NOT that Moses saw God in his fullness!

 

[Van]

Walking the Talk

that is what the calvinists do, as we look to the Bible for the doctrines of God, not based upon our own presumptions, such as God being unable to fully know the future, or that God sometimes learns on the fly!

No one found TULI in the bible, they read it into the bible based on presumptions. God desires all men to be saved is clear, but the Calvinist presumption requires it be understood as God desires Elect men to be saved. Or "all kinds of men" or so forth and so on.

Scripture says "now I know" but Calvinists claim what this really means is "I knew already." On and on we could go.
The dark ages are loaded with examples of men taking scripture too far, past what is said and building doctrine on extrapolations. And when further study revealed these extrapolations conflicted with many passages, rather than modify, i.e. reform, the doctrine, instead the tools of nullification were unleashed upon God's divine revelation.

 

[Yeshua1]

No one found TULI in the bible, they read it into the bible based on presumptions. God desires all men to be saved is clear, but the Calvinist presumption requires it be understood as God desires Elect men to be saved. Or "all kinds of men" or so forth and so on.

Scripture says "now I know" but Calvinists claim what this really means is "I knew already." On and on we could go.
The dark ages are loaded with examples of men taking scripture too far, past what is said and building doctrine on extrapolations. And when further study revealed these extrapolations conflicted with many passages, rather than modify, i.e. reform, the doctrine, instead the tools of nullification were unleashed upon God's divine revelation.

I think that its better and easier to bypass the reformers in a sense and go back into the bibcal etxts themselves, as they do seem to support DoG...

Think problem is that even with the revelation from the Lord, being finite minded, just hard to get a full grasp on the entire dealings of God with man!

 

[12strings]

...Based on scripture ...He knows everything but He also is surprised...gets angry when what He knows is going to happen once it does happen.

I Just thought I'd post this section of your post and see if you want to stand by it...

Just believe what is written even if it cannot be explained.

This sounds very pious, but we also need to use wise interpretation to avoid error...for example:
-"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." (don't try to explain it, just believe it!)