Featured We don't WANT "Free-Will"

What I posted were the very words of our Lord Jesus Christ! You call the words of Jesus a mockery of scripture?!

Maybe you should put aside all your Reformed books and constantly listening to Reformed teachers and listen to the words of Jesus. Jesus himself said, "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit." I didn't say that, Jesus did.

OK, Mr. Genius, you explain exactly what Jesus meant when he said this. I don't want to hear what some "scholar" wrote, I would like you to explain in your own words what Jesus meant when he said either make the tree good, or else make the tree corrupt.

Most do not answer because they CANNOT answer without directly contradicting scripture.

So, let's hear your explanation of Matthew 12:33 in your own words, not those of another.

 

WEBDOG,

Allan makes a serious scriptural attempt to address the issue....scripturally.
I am asking you to do the same. I think you can....but i am not seeing it.
I do not always agree with Allan, or he with me...that is okay.
if you look...he always offers me what scriptures he thinks i need to consider.
I do consider what he says. there are several things we do agree about.
I like Arthur Pink...but he must be read carefully. I think many here on BB find pink helpful....on God's attributes, the beatitudes, inspiration of scripture.
Obviously on the DoG there are built in disagreements.
I am glad to see Allan particpate when he can. It is sometimes with those we disagree with that we are forced to learn from.
While I like Allan...I will not hesitate to disagree with him if I need to.
He does not just jump in to be disruptive...like several do.
He does not back down from solid posters like Archangel...he responds.

Maybe i missed it...but I did not see you respond to this;
Allan took it head on---

 

you just have to read two more verses to see it..it is not that hard is it?
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

There is none good but God alone. God saves sinners and conforms them to His image in sanctification...romans 8:28-30 so a good man, would be one who has been brought to repentance by God and his word.

Generation of Vipers...and you...BEING EVIL.....does not sound like it was a multiple choice test...does it now... this echoes what john the baptist had already been teaching..

Jesus looks at the heart and gives the proper evaluation to the self righteous religious hypocrites.

 

That's your answer? That Jesus was speaking of something that doesn't exist? Why would Jesus speak of a good man that brings forth good things if no such thing exists? Wouldn't that be misleading? Why wouldn't Jesus simply say there is no such thing as a good man?

Why would Jesus say EITHER make the tree good and it's fruit good, OR ELSE make the tree corrupt and it's fruit corrupt if man has no such ability?

The fact that Jesus said a good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things shows that such a man exists.

It is true that Jesus said there is none good but God, but this is speaking of sinless perfection, it is not saying man is unable to do good. I have already posted scripture where Jesus directly said sinners do good.

And, as I showed earlier, Cornelius was not saved, he was not regenerated, he did not have the Holy Spirit, yet he feared God, prayed always, and gave much alms to the poor. God heard his prayers and recognized his good works and sent an angel to him, instructing him to send for Peter whereby he would hear the gospel and be saved.

According to Romans 8:9, if a man does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, then he is still in the flesh. He is a natural man. Cornelius did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, yet he was able to have faith in God and do many good works. Peter described him as a man that "worketh righteousness".

Calvinism loves to cherry pick select verses that seem to support their doctrine, and completely ignore MANY scriptures that refute it.

Cornelius was a good man, and he brought forth good fruit.

 

Riiiight, because God sending his Son to die and be resurrected, the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, inspiring the writing of the gospel in scripture through divinely appointed apostles, carrying that gospel by Holy Spirit indwelled messengers, establishing his Bride (the Church), to spread that gospel message which is to make an appeal to all men everywhere to be reconciled, is God having 'nothing to do with it.' :laugh:

You guys really crack me up.

 

We are praying for God to intervene in order to 'provoke their wills' as Paul speaks of in Romans 11:14. We believe God must work on man's hearts, we just don't make the mistake of assuming that work is irresistible, thus causing all these dilemmas.

Right, but in our system, His will is that all men come to repentance and be saved (Peter 3:9; Tim. 2:4 etc), and in your system His will is only that a preselected few would do so, thus this answer doesn't address the problem. If you are praying for a non-elect reprobate you are praying against God's will...you are praying to lesson his Glory. We aren't in our system, because we are praying for what we believe is the will of God.

This example just points out the same problem with your system regarding prayer. When we pray for rain we actually believe God hears our prayers and may respond accordingly, while you don't believe prayers change a thing. In your system, it was predetermined whether or not it would rain long before the prayers were even offered, so the prayers are nothing more than empty pleas if your system is true.

If so, then your prayers for a non-elect reprobate are prayers against God's will and glory.

 

Skan (others) I came across the following (to me) interesting paper on Pelagius.

http://digitalcommons.csbsju.edu/cg...sw#search="actual writings teaching pelagius"

 

Of course believers are called and reconciled, what is there to touch on there? The action was completed...for believers, with it being continuous, God reconciling the world to Himself through those who believe.

Interesting that you state "out from the world" when the argument being made in that thread is the "world" is speaking of believers.

 

Stop making sense!!!!!!!!!! It is highly controversial around here.:laugh:

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

:thumbsup: Great point!!!

 

Well we are making some progress. The answer here is that the word world is like the word Kingdom.

Believers we are told are in the world....but not off it.

If we have established as Allan points out in his study that the world that it speaks of unbelievers...by default...as we are all sinners...

Then it stands to reason that at regeneration and conversion sinners who are born from above in new birth have to be spoken of with a distinction from the world of the ungodly....[as those destroyed in the flood of Noah's day}

In Jn 3:16 this is done by the terms everyone believing

Now you have the unbelieving world, and those in the world who believe.

We are told that like Noah going into the ark...[a place of safety,shielded from God's wrath] these sinners while physically in this world are given a new citizenship phil 3:20. They are in the place of safety{in Christ} but now being reconciled that are obedient servants,and sons in the Kingdom of God.

Jesus is king now,as His Kingdom has invaded this world. When someone refers to the world of the elect....they are speaking of these elect persons alive all around the world....not Israel only. The scope is worldwide, with the throne and reign originating from heaven.
The new heart given at regeneration enables us to begin Kingdom living Mt.5-7.

Your position would be that God loves ...the whole world...correct?

but .....the text indicates that it is the everyone believing and continuing to believe......that are the object of the love.

We preach to all men worldwide.....looking for...the everyone believing[elect]
The scope is worldwide....but neither one of us is a universalist....so the actually reconciliation, propitiation, and peace of God ...can only be said to be in Christ.

The gospel is offered to all men....worldwide...

 

Holy Yarn Balls, Batman!

Just wondering if the noncalvinists in this thread would care to correct this man's glaring and irredeemible perversion of the passage before I do.

If I have to, I won't exercise my signature tact and sensitivity.

 

This shows shallow thinking . The problem isn't logic, it is understanding God's complete sovereignty over his creation - he works all things according to the purpose of his will, eph 1;11, so that includes means as well as actions. If the means of achieving those ends are also decreed, like for example - Jesus being killed by people! What was the emans of that, well one was the desire of Judas to betray Jesus. It is all perfectly logical.