Featured 1 Cor. 12-14

Yeah, and it was never conclusively proven.

 

Then you don't agree with normal Pentecostal/Charismatic teaching that tongues is the sign of the filling of the Holy Spirit, is that correct?

There is no such phrase in the Bible as "manifestation of the Holy Spirit." That's made up. I don't even know what you mean by it.

And you don't understand. I credit God with everything, every gift I have. Don't you? And it makes perfect sense to me that the Holy Spirit made me and gave me the gifts I have in light of 1 Cor. 12-14.

The problem is, you don't think of "tongues" in the Bible as regular languages, but they were. I've already pointed that out from the Greek words used. And in 1611, the word "tongues" simply meant languages, not some "manifestation."

 

So your final position is that God never, no never, gifts lost people, is that correct? Can you prove that from the Bible?

Poor exegesis. It does not say that in Acts 2. You can't just stick words from Acts 19 into Acts 2.

In Acts 2, Peter specifically connected what had happened (speaking in other languages) with the prophecy in Joel 2 (everyone prophesying).

Yes, they magnified God with their languages, that is clear from the text.

 

I do believe God gives people special words of encouragement or exhortation for one another...two examples are (1) a college professor who barely knew me encouraged me to think about going into ministry. (2) A man in our church stood up in a business meeting and said he felt like God wanted us to rebuild a church in Haiti that the earthquake had collapsed. In both cases, I believe those came from God...but in both cases, they could have simply been that persons opinion...God might not have been calling me to the ministry (he was). Each case must be tested against scripture, and it must be understood that what I think might be a word from God might actually just be one persons opinion...time will tell.

Bottom line...just because someone says they have a word from God...(to quote the great song from Porgy & Bess)..."It ain't necessarily so."

 

So Awaken, simple question...

If someone does not do miraculous healing or speak in tongues...would you say they do not have the Spirit, because if they did, it would be miraculously manifest?


(I would say theY certainly could...because the Spirit could manifest itself in a gift of service, accompanied by love, joy, peace, patience, self-control, gentleness...)

 

what about teaching, leadership, service, acts of mercy, generosity? (Romans 12).

 

So you're saying speaking in tongues is not necessary to being a spirit-filled Christian?

 

You still did not answer my question. Do you or do you not believe that tongues are the sign of the fullness of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, and there is no Biblical evidence that the tongues in 1 Cor. 12-14 are the same as the tongues in Acts 2. Paul does not refer back to the events in Acts in those chapters. Prove to me that 1 Cor. 12-14 are speaking of miraculous tongues.

You're right, I blew that one! :laugh: It was late in the evening here in Japan and I obviously should have been getting ready for be rather than

Glad to know you think they are real languages. But why would they be earthly languages if tongues are always talking to God as you say? That doesn't make any sense. Why talk to God in another tongue if you can do so in your own. However, it makes perfect sense to speak other languages if you are telling others about God.

But let's consider the "manifestation" verse. The Greek word for that is phanerosis, a rare one, occurring only twice in the NT and never in the Septuagint. The Friberg lexicon says, "as an action making public, clear announcement, disclosure (2C 4.2); evidencing, making known, revelation (1C 12.7)."

There is nothing in that definition suggesting a miracle. Nor is there anything that says God cannot gift lost people. You still have to prove that to me.

I believe that God has a plan for every single lost person just as for every saved person, even if they don't ever believe. He mourns when they die without Him (Ez. 33:11), sad that they have not fulfilled their potential for glorifying Him. He gives them spiritual gifts, even if they never use them or only use them for their own profit.

On that line, note these Scriptures: "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him" (Luke 7:30). "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Rom. 11:29).

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to add to what you post. That's why I said, "Is this correct?" So then, why is 1 Cor. 12-14 not talking about God gifting unbelievers as well as believers?

But you had previously said that in Acts they were both speaking in tongues and prophesying. Please be more clear in your points.

Now, in order to apply 1 Cor. 14 here, you have to prove that 1 Cor. is talking about the same kind of tongues as in Acts. Can you do that?

This is not accurate. Paul did not say that speaking in tongues and interpreting was the same as prophesying. He said that if you speak in tongues you prophesy with those tongues. The tongue (both the original and the interpreting languages) is the means used to prophesy, not the prophecy itself. If I preach a sermon in Japanese (a form of Biblical prophesying, I believe), the Japanese is the means by which I preach. If I translate/interpret into Japanese for an American preacher speaking English, again, his means is English and mine is Japanese. The language is distinct from the sermon.

 

You are making an assumption here that Acts 2 etc. and 1 Cor. refer to the same kind of tongues. I asked you to prove it. Your opinion doesn't prove a thing--give me Scriptural proof.

I've read it many, many times and it still says the same thing to me. If I am in a room speaking Japanese, but no one in the room but me knows Japanese, then only God knows what I am saying. You are operating here on a presupposition that the tongues in this chapter are the same as in Acts 2, a miraculous gift. Prove it!

This is an anachronistic approach. You are using English and modern technology to try to understand the NT, which was written in Greek. Try again. This doesn't convince at all.

You are missing the grammar of the passage. It is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, not humans manifesting the Spirit. We use the gifts God manifests/gives/empowers (looking at the Greek definition) in us.

That God loves each lost person, has a plan for them, and gives them gifts.

According to the doctrine of trichotomy lost people have spirit, soul and body just like saved people do. The spiritual part is dead in that it cannot respond to God, but it still exists. So they can have spiritual gifts, but not use them spiritually.