Featured Calvinists... do you have a problem with the concept that God is the ultimate...

webdog

God can be both if need be;
Gen 20;
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

8 Therefore Abimelech rose early in the morning, and called all his servants, and told all these things in their ears: and the men were sore afraid.

9 Then Abimelech called Abraham, and said unto him, What hast thou done unto us? and what have I offended thee, that thou hast brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? thou hast done deeds unto me that ought not to be done.

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I believe if someone truly understands the scriptural teaching they will embrace this doctrine.



and at that point either continue believing

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No calvinist and no historic confession will ever believe that this is even possible,and yet , it gets brought forward as if it is a viable point of contention. Itrust God in all his Holy attributes.:thumbsup:

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My doctrine is found directly in the word of God...I just desire to know more of Jesus and his teaching.

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I am very comfortable in the understanding of these truths as most all of the professing church has been since, the reformation....re-discovering Apostolic teaching. No need to Get out of Dodge....but rather lenghten the cord and strengthen the stakes...Zions rule is going worldwide, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it......I am there for the long haul...all the way home:thumbsup:

The camp of the saints who have always believed these truths..there is plenty of room...for everyone believing the truth of God:love2:

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::applause:

 

ditto and Amen.....

 

In all seriousness, one of the best posts of the thread. All we have to do is let God be God. It is amazing how many created beings try to understand the deepest secrets of the Creator. The Lord let us know through His Word what He wanted us to know. Jaws can flap from now till eternity an opinion every second, and it is not going to change the nature of the Lord one iota.

 

And we are only going to know what God allows us to know. This is one thing I get from the Book of Job. Job had a lot of problems and asked a lot of questions. God responded to Job:

Job 38:1, 2
1. Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2. Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

I am afraid that verse 2 above applies to about 95%+ that is posted on this forum!

 

Oh the tension of an antimony!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

I think Charnock's discourse on the Holiness of God is well worth reading and discusses much on this very topic. I'm not sure if he answers all the questions at all or to satisfaction but his analysis is good.

sorry for a long quote, but this is just a small sample of a great discussion:

 

When I don't know something, I just don't know it....it's that plain and simple....just like me....more simple than plain.


In Nahum 1, Nahum writes that the clouds are the dust of His feet. If the clouds are the dust of His feet, wow. Look at how small dust is in comparison to us. And then carry that over to the comparison of the clouds and His feet. I know that this is figurative language, but try to wrap your mind around how big God is. And then try to figure Him out with our small, puny, finite minds. No wonder there are so many doctrines, and denoms.....people think they have it figured out, when in reality, they are a million miles away.......

 

First, that text does not prove anything other that He was in control of the situation. Saying He kept Abe from sinning doesn't equate to controlling, but the end result being just that.

You still continue to hold on to this fallacy? Just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean they don't understand. Scores of godly men throughout history that disagree with your doctrine that understand it. You really need to give this argument a rest.

As this very thread shows, they will say it is not possible (some will) while denying free will (such as yourself) which is nothing more than a contradiction.

The Bible does not teach God is controlling every situation...it teaches He is in control of every situation.

Determinism is not truth.

Again, pure question begging. Jesus did not teach determinism, hence it cannot be truth.

 

Icon...that is simply not true...there have been MANY very prominent Calvinist Theologians who absolutely DO believe that, and state as much...You are probably correct about there not being any "confessions" or "catechisms" which do. But there have been MANY Prominent Theologians (it is quite reasonably argued to include Calvin himself)....Who absolutely DO believe this. That is one of those reasons that it
1.) IS INDEED a "viable point of contention"
and
2.) Continues to be brought up by non-reformed detractors....It is a truth that there have been, and are many a Calvinist Theologian who essentially believe that.

They won't use the WORD "authored" (of course)....because they can't, but they will unabashedly claim as much. I can hardly concieve how you don't already know or admit at least this much.

 

I think you're having a problem with Old Testament phraseology. Evil is synonymous with calamity depending on the context. Go back to the blessings and curses of the law (Deut. 28). Could it be said that the LORD was bringing evil upon Israel for her disobedience? Yes. The question is whether evil proceeds forth from God's nature. Because God is holy I believe scripture has established the precedent that He is not evil, nor can evil come forth from Him. When you look on the evils of the Old Testament you may actually be looking at judgment. Because the judgment was often severe it would resonate as evil to Israel. This is one of the reasons why a wooden one-for-one literal translation of the Hebrew and Aramaic can get someone in trouble. Take the time to do a study on God's judgments and punishments of Israel and it may begin to shed light on evil supposedly coming forth from God.

 

Sin has it's consequences, now we argue about it. We should be more concerned with repentance, especially that God has demonstrated His love through the cross. We are all saved by Grace, well, from that stand point, let's get on with it and help people understand that a day of wrath is coming and that they need to believe the Gospel.

I guess we have been released from preaching the Gospel and are now at liberty to chase tails and argue theology till He comes.

 

Calamity can be a divine response to sin. Any theological concept attributing punishment or calamity for sin without divine righteous judgment, meaning a theory which neglects the origin of the responsibility for that sin and suggests our Holy God is responsible for that sin fails miserably and is known as “Theological Fatalism”.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)

God brings about good in the face of evil, that is how he might “use” evil for good, but He is not ever the originating cause of evil. God’s creation is perfect, He does not and did not “miss the mark” in creation.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)

I am really surprised at the implication here as I commonly would only find reason to attribute the one defining God as a creator of evil to come from a Hard Determinist, either directly or indirectly, no matter, the substance of the conclusion is placing the responsibility of evil on God by simple logic and leads to fatalism going right to the core of their theology.

God is Truth, He could no more create evil than make a square circle, or not be Truth. A simple comparison to scripture bears the Divine nature of God out: “He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment, a God of truth and without inequity, just and right is He.” Deut 32:4

His work is perfect:
H8549
תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

Without iniquity:
H5766
עלהעולהעולהעולעול
‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh
eh'-vel, aw'-vel, av-law', o-law', o-law'
From H5765; (moral) evil: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

Another important point I would make is “create evil” does not translate to moral evil---but in contrast to “peace” such as war, calamity or disaster, pestilence.

In Isaiah 45:7 (“and create evil”) when looking into the context God is making a glorious promise to Cyrus and contending with those that hinder Him with a curse. God is telling them to contend with their fellow creatures and not with their Creator. He makes peace, (that’s what He does) and creates evil (and this is the result) He tells them He is the Lord and is instructing them to do these things and follows by giving them a “woe” for striving against Him.

I make of it that if you are attributing evil to God that you seriously need to check your motives for doing so and suggest it has become a necessity to logically support your theological system of Determism and that such is rooted in pride and the traditions and philosophy of men. I credit you in seeing the tension between Calvinism and the Nature of God. But, if you are thinking about trying to support your theological system by attributing evil to God that you drop to your knees and ask His forgiveness for such a motive.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(Col 2:8)

 

I think that Greek is on to something here Morse...and although, your basic premise is correct....If I understand it, it is that verbally, "calmaity and evil" are inter-changeable in the Hebrew. This is true, but that is the nature of the language. The Hebrew uses ( I think) ONE word to describe either the notion of "young woman" or "virgin" or "soprano"....I believe I am correct when I explain that Hebrew uses only the word "Almah" interrchangeably when it is describing those things...It really makes sense actually:

Hebrew thought works like this, I think:

1.) A "young" woman is probably not married
2.) An "unmarried" woman should be or is assumed to be a virgin
3.) "Young" women are often those still easily capable of (at least pleasantly) singing and carrying the "Soprano" line of a Psalm or song....
4.) Thus, when a Psalm says that the instructions are "For Almah" or, "the virgins"...it is saying that it is the job of the "Sopranos" in modern parlance to carry the melody!!!!!!!

What I am saying is that it might (in instances) be a better choice Theologically to understand what the translators were saying in native tongue as the precision of English simply did not exist in Hebrew...Hebrew was designed to convey and assume a lot of context...thus, when we debate the meaning of a Hebrew word...we must be careful not to inadvertently be guilty of some "equivocation" because Hebrew was decidedly NOT designed to convey quite the precision of say, the Greek, or even modern English.

I think your post, although quite honestly meant, fails to distinguish the unique nature of THAT language...And is inadvertently guilty of some "equivocation" here. Even though Hebrew often uses the same word for (related, but not the same) meanings....we still have to study context to exegete it....I think that, although not "perfect"...the KJV translators were absolutely masterful with their translation of the Hebrew.

I believe GreekTim answered you correctly here:

Basically, "precision" in a language like Hebrew doesn't really exist, although depth and a veritable pregnancy of meaning does...So, I don't think we should exercise our basically "Greek"/"Westernized" mindset to be-labour the meanings of O.T. Hebrew words. Truthfully, I think an understanding of Hebrew can usually be used to "BROADEN" the meaning of a word, but rarely can it be used to restrict it.

 

Sometimes God allows man to experience the horrible effects of sin by removing His restraining hand. In that sense God is not the first cause. Romans 1 paints this picture by God delivering man over to the depravity of his own mind. In other words, sinful man reaps what he sows.

The question we don't have an answer for is why does God allow sin to exist? Scripture is silent on that question. My personal speculation is that God's triumph over sin brings more glory to His name. Since there is no other being deserving of such glory this is not an act of conceit or narcissism on God's part. It is right that God is glorified.

 

Allowing a person free will does not make God responsible for sin.

An analogy;

The law allows all of us of age to drive a motor vehicle. In order for a motor vehicle to safely cruise at 65-70 MPH it is necessary to make a car capable of going much faster than the posted limit, thus, most cars are built able to go at least 100 MPH or much more.

Does that make the manufacturer of our vehicle responsible if we drive 100 MPH and cause a deadly accident? NO. Is it the law's fault for allowing a person to drive, fully knowing that every person might possibly speed and cause an accident? NO, every driver is fully responsible to obey the traffic laws and drive safely.

God is love, and love does not force or constrain someone to love you. We call someone who tries to force someone to love themselves a rapist, or at least a very selfish and controlling person. Love absolutely demands freedom. God does not want slaves, he wants people who realize he loves them so much that he sent his Son to die for us, and that will love God in return of their own free choice.

This is the only possible way there can be love. By necessity the freedom that allows us to love God also must provide the possibility that we reject God and hate him. It cannot be avoided, even by God.

That doesn't make God responsible for our free will choices, just as Honda or Ford is not responsible if we drive one of their vehicles 110 MPH and cause a deadly accident on the highway.