Featured Sketchy Doctrine

Psa 51:5 does not say WE were conceived in iniquity, it says DAVID was conceived in iniquity. It does not say David or anybody else was born a sinner. In fact, it is easily observed that David is speaking of his mother, not himself in this verse.

Your understanding of Psa 51:5 completely contradicts what David has just said in the first 4 verses.

Psa 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This Psalm was David's confession after he had committed adultery with Bathsheba. He repeatedly admits his guilt in the first four verses.

In your view, David suddenly changes course in verse 5, and now claims that it is his mother's fault he had committed this sin. He was born a sinner and he MUST sin, he is COMPELLED to sin by his nature received from his mother.

You see, that makes no sense at all, and is not a confession of guilt. It is passing the buck, blaming his mother for his own personal sin. It would deny his own personal guilt in this matter. Your view is nonsensical.

David is simply saying he was born into a sinful world. This is how the Jews themselves interpreted this verse for over 1400 years until Augustine came along and claimed it supported Original Sin.

Verse 5 is not even describing David, but his mother, it says in sin did his mother conceive him. His mother did the conceiving, not David.

So again, VERY SHODDY Bible interpretation on your part.

 

Furthermore, if you interpret Psalm 51:5 to teach Original Sin, what do you do with Psalm 22, 71, and 139?

Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Here David says it was God that took him out of his mother's womb, and that God was his God from his mother's belly. This refutes Original Sin.

Psa 71:5 For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.

Again, David says that God took him out of his mother's womb, and that he was "holden up" by God from the womb.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Here David said God possessed his reins and covered him in his mother's womb. David said he is fearfully and wonderfully made. How would being made a filthy sinner be wonderful??

So, folks take one single verse out of context in an attempt to prove Original Sin, and completely ignore far more verses by the same author that completely refutes Original Sin.

This is nothing but cherry-picking scripture to fit your presupposition.

 

People seem to be deflecting to Romans 5:13 when the scripture needed is Romans 5:12

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

death passed upon all men because "for that all have sinned" which is an aorist statement (past tense) in other words we were all there in the past when Adam sinned.​

It does not say all who will sin will die but all have sinned.​

Therefore the verdict of death is passed upon all.​

While I don't accept the Church of Rome defintion of "Original Sin" (in fact I don't like the phrase) we all die because we all "sinned" (past tense) in Adam.

My own view is that God regenerates those children (should they die an untimely death) who are too young to realize the consequence of their sin.​

Otherwise no babies would die at birth or while they were yet "without sin".

But some do. How come and is/was it Adam's fault?

Whose then?

HankD​

 

This view is easily refuted by Romans 9:11;

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Esau and Jacob were very much alive in their mother's womb when God spoke to their mother Rebecca, and Paul says they had done no evil.

Now, if all men participated in Adam's sin when he sinned, this could not be said. Esau and Jacob would have been just as guilty of eating the forbidden fruit as was Adam.

So, Paul himself refutes this mistaken view that all men sinned "in Adam". If fact, the term "in Adam" is used only ONCE in all of scripture, 1 Cor 15:22;

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is the ONLY time in scripture the term "in Adam" is ever used (look it up). Does it say we are all born dead in sin? NO. It does not say we are dead (past tense), it says in Adam we all DIE (future tense).

So, this verse actually refutes Original Sin and proves we are not born dead in sin. You must be alive to die.

Besides that, this verse is speaking of physical death, not spiritual, the 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians is the "Resurrection Chapter" speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies from physical death, not spiritual death.

So, folks make all sorts of errors trying to prove Original Sin when it is not there.

Fact is, Paul himself said he was spiritually alive in Romans 7.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

In verse 9 Paul says he was ALIVE without the law ONCE, but when the commndment came, sin revived, and he died.

When did the commandment come? That is shown in verse 7, Paul is speaking of the time when he learned the law and came to discover what sin is. Paul clearly states he would not have known lust unless the law had said "Thou shalt not covet". So, obviously Paul is speaking of the time in his youth when he came to know the law.

Paul had thought the law was a guide and way to life, he thought if he obeyed the law he would inherit eternal life. He discovered the exact opposite, that sin used the law to convict him as a sinner and he spiritually died.

Paul could not possibly be saying he physically died here. :laugh:

Obviously then, Paul is saying he was spiritually alive in verse 9, absolutely refuting Original Sin.

 

Baloney. I will quote T. W. Brents on Psa 51:5

And again, you pull one single verse of poetry (not doctrinal scripture) out of context that is not speaking of all men, but only of David's mother, and completely ignore much other scripture recorded by David himself that God was his God from his mother's belly, that God possessed his reins and covered him in his mother's womb, and that he was fearfully and wonderfully made.

So, I guess you believe David was teaching that God made him a sinner?

Besides being plain stupid, that is horrendous.

 

In Romans 7 Paul is saying he was "alive" but it was a deception which was revealed by the law.

Romans 5:12 is clear we all sinned (past tense) in Adam.

Still - why do the "innocent" die, who sinned?

HankD

 

That is not what Paul says, he clearly says he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

Paul didn't say he "mistakenly" believed he was alive, he said he was alive. Further, he says that he DIED. You have to be alive to die, a rock cannot die, because a rock was never alive. Paul says that sin taking occasion by the law deceived him, and SLEW HIM. You have to be alive to be SLAIN, you cannot kill a rock, because a rock is not alive.

You have no warrant to apply this explanation of yours to this passage. There is not one word to indicate Paul mistakenly believed he was spiritually alive.

There is more scripture than this to support we are born spiritually alive.

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

In Luke 15, Jesus told three parables that were actually ONE parable (vs. 3). The first parable was about a sheep who became lost, the shepherd searched and recovered this lost sheep. Then in vs. 6-7 Jesus explains this is a lost sinner who repents (not a backslidden believer as many falsely teach).

But originally this sheep was NOT lost.

Then Jesus speaks of a woman with ten pieces of silver. One becomes lost, the woman dilligently searches and finds it. Again, Jesus explains this lost coin represents a lost sinner who repents.

But originally the coin was NOT lost.

Then Jesus describes a father with two sons. One willingly and knowingly rejects his father and goes out in sin, joining himself to a citizen of a far country. When the boy repents, TWICE Jesus says he is ALIVE AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

This prodigal son was not lost at first, and he was not dead. When he repented his father said he was ALIVE AGAIN.

If we are all born dead in sin, all born separated from God by sin as many teach, then there is no possible way to say any man is alive AGAIN, but that is exactly what Jesus Christ the Son of God said TWICE!!

OK, we are not talking about what Augustine, or Calvin, or Luther, or Spurgeon believed, we are talking about what JESUS believed, and Jesus said this boy was alive AGAIN.

Now, if you would rather listen to Calvin, or James White, or Arthur Pink, or any other person, that is your right, but Jesus clearly shows that men are not born dead in sin, but that all men knowingly and willingly go out in sin, and this is when they spiritually die, and when they repent and come to Jesus they are born AGAIN, and are alive AGAIN.

Believe what you want.

 

And to answer why the innocent physically die, they die as a consequence of Adam's sin, just as many might die in a train wreck as a consequence of the driver's mistake, not their own.

God banned Adam and Eve from the tree of life and chased man out of the garden, this is why all men physically die.

It is actually a good thing that men physically die, this is our greatest incentive to turn from sin to Jesus Christ. If man were to live forever, there would be no incentive to turn from sin, and man would continue to corrupt himself more and more.

Now, this is just speculation on my part, but I believe this is why God destroyed the old world. We see men were living upwards of 900 years, and all men had corrupted themselves and become very wicked.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

The word "corrupt" means to go from a good state to a bad state, such as when fruit rots. Men are not born corrupt, but all men had corrupted themselves and the world was very wicked.

After the flood man's lifespan became much shorter.



This chart shows how quickly men's lifespan dropped off after the flood. Within a short period of time man was only living 70 years as we know today.

This acts as an incentive to turn men from sin to Christ, it acts as a deterrent to sin. Yes, our world is very wicked, but just imagine how wicked men would be if we continued to live 900 years or more.

So, all men dying as a consequence of Adam's sin has some benefit for us all, all men are far more likely to repent quickly if they know they will soon die.

 

Are you saying that before the commandments were given no one sinned? Cain didn't sin? Abraham?

 

No, no, no, that is not what I am saying at all.

Paul clearly says that when there is no law, sin is not imputed.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now, was Paul speaking about the law being given by Moses in Romans 7:9 when he said "but when the commandment came". NO, he was clearly speaking of when he personally learned the law;

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

You know of the Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah. This is when the Jews believe young men and women become accountable as adults to the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah

That is what Paul is speaking about in Romans 7. When he learned the law as a young man, he believed by following the law he would inherit eternal life, the law was "ordained to life" (vs. 9).

But sin, taking occasion by the law convicted him as a sinner and he spiritually died.

You see, there has to be a law for sin to be imputed (Rom 5:13). Paul is not saying that Adam's sin was imputed to all men in Romans 5:14, he only mentions men from Adam to Moses.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Is Paul saying Adam's sin was imputed to ALL MEN here? NO! He is not even speaking of all men, but only of men from Adam to Moses. Paul is explaining that their spiritual death proves they were sinners.

These men from Adam to Moses (not ALL men) died without law, as there was only ONE law, that they could not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and they could not possibly break that law. This is why Paul says these men did not sin after the similitude of Adam, it was absolutely impossible for them to do so.

So, what law did they break? Paul had already explained this in chapter 2.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul had already explained in chapter 2 that men WITHOUT THE LAW shall also perish WITHOUT THE LAW. Why? Because they have the law written on their hearts and conscience.

And this is exactly what Paul is explaining again in Rom 5:13-14, men from Adam to Moses (not ALL men) died, even though they had not sinned after the similitude of Adam. It was impossible for them to do so.

So, those who teach that Rom 5:12 is teaching that Adam's sin is imputed to all men are in serious error. At best, you could only say it applied to men from Adam to Moses.

But it is not saying that either. All men become accountable when they learn the law and willingly and knowingly sin.

 

Of course he did, he was formerly a pharisee, not only a pharisee but a pharisee of the pharisees. His hope (and his peers) was in Moses. This was their major problem, they were dead men walking yet they believed God was pleased with their works.

This is in fact what you said to Amy in you post to her above:

I rest my case.


HankD

 

I wasn't talking to Paul (and I think you know that).

You have no warrant to say Paul mistakingly believed he was spiritually alive, he says no such thing. He clearly and plainly says he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

If Paul was not alive, then how did he DIE???

Oh well, I guess the scriptures can mean whatever folks want them to mean.

 

When did Cain spiritually die since there was no law then?

 

I do not know Cain's entire life, I cannot tell you when he sinned the first time.

But we do know men before Moses knew that murder was sin, so Cain assuredly knew he was a sinner when he killed his brother Abel (not Able). :laugh:

And I still want to know how Paul could die if he was already dead? Just exactly how does that work?

In fact, how can a person be born dead? Don't you have to be alive before you can be dead?

You Calvinists are so smart, answer those questions.

 

Ah, but you were... and you named him...

When Paul was convicted of sin by the law, he died (his life perished before his eyes seeing that the law which had given him this wonderful expectation had all along been deceiving him and now condemned him).

Actually he frames it this way to prove a point. It was this misunderstanding of the purpose of the law that caused this "death".

Galatians 2:16 ... for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

We do something similar especially those of us who grew up in the church, possibly with a "profession" and a baptism.
Happy-go-lucky until real conviction of sin hits them, then we go down into the Slough of Despond.

John Bunyan writes in one of his works that as a Church of England member he thought "no one served God better than I".

Until he was convicted of sin. Then he spent several years "under the wrath of God" came to Christ and was delivered.

HankD

 

You still haven't explained how Paul DIED. If he discovered he was already dead, then how could he say he DIED?

So, this explanation of yours does not cut it at all.

 

What? Are you trying to tell me who I was talking to? I know for a certainty I was talking to you.

No, not according to you. According to you he was already dead. So it makes no sense for Paul to say he was alive and then died. Oh, Paul could easily have said he mistakenly believed he was alive and then discovered he was dead, but he says no such thing.

That's the thing that really kills me about you Calvinists, you believe that God is unable to properly express himself. God says "all men" when he really means "the elect only", Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says he was "alive once" when he really meant to say he was "dead all the time".

Good thing you Calvinists have come along and helped God explain what he really meant to say. :laugh:

Actually, Paul truly meant to say he was alive without the law once, but when the law came, sin revived, and he died. But thanks for the Calvinist eisegesis.

Yep.

Nice stories, but Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit does not make mistakes. Paul did not say he mistakenly believed he was alive once, he actually says he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

 

You keep trying to connect spiritual death to knowing the Law. Cain didn't have the Law, so how could he die spiritually?

Now if Paul was spiritually alive then died, did he lose his salvation? What does being spiritually alive mean to you?

 

Bless you Amy. You see.

That in itself is a blessed state beyond words.