Featured Sketchy Doctrine

Adam and Eve were created "very good" (Gen 1:31) and yet they had the ability to sin. Having the ability to sin does not make you evil or a sinner, Jesus implied he had the ability to lie.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

The word "if" implies possibility, so here Jesus implied he had the ability to lie. Does that make Jesus a liar? NO.

You have the ability to murder, does that make you a murderer? NO. You have the ability to rob a bank, does that make you a bank robber? NO.

So, this is a very poor argument and distorts the true meaning of sin. Sin is something you actually do. God would not have had to command Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil if they were utterly unable to do so, simply having the ability to eat of the tree did not make them a sinner.

Not so. If they would have eaten of the tree of life they would have lived forever, their sin would not have killed them physically. It was not sin that directly caused them to physically die, but because God barred them from the tree of life.

No, God told them IN THE DAY they eat of it they shall die.

This supports what I just said.

That is an assumption on your part. The fact that Adam and Eve had to eat at all proves they could die. The tree of life provides healing that prevents a person from dying. (Rev 22:2)

The scriptures say we are a new creation and a new man, old things have passed away. The scriptures say we partake of the divine nature. So why would saved parents give birth to a child with a sin nature?

This just proves how foolish it is to believe that sin is passed physically. If sin is passed physically, then Jesus would have been born with a sin nature, as scripture says he was MADE of the SEED of DAVID according to the FLESH.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

The angel that spoke to Mary said David was Jesus's father;

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

The scriptures say Jesus took on himself the NATURE of the seed of Abraham (not Adam). As you know Abraham was a sinner born after the fall.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus had the same nature as the descendants of Abraham and was made like unto his brethren the Jews IN ALL THINGS. If man was born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. I refuse to believe this, as scripture says Jesus was without sin. Therefore men cannot be born with a sin nature.

I disagree. If sin causes physical death, then God would not have needed to keep Adam and Eve from the tree of life, as they would have died anyway.

And this is salvation other than placing faith on Jesus.

Again, having the ability to sin does not make you a sinner, or else Adam and Eve were created sinners. God would not have needed to command them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil if they were not able to eat of it. They always had the ability to sin, but this did not make them sinners, God said they were VERY GOOD before they sinned.

So, this argument of yours is easily proved to be a fallacy.

Parables express spiritual truths as when Jesus explained the parable of the four different soils to his disciples.

I find it impossible to believe Jesus would tell us about the elder son who NEVER sinned if no such person could exist.

And I refuse to believe Jesus was speaking of the Pharisees as some teach, Jesus was always very direct with the Pharisees and called them children of the devil, hypocrites, whited sepulchres, etc... Jesus NEVER gave them the impression they were sinless.

No, it was Jesus himself who told three stories that were one. The lost sheep was not lost at first, the lost silver coin was not lost at first, and the prodigal son was not lost at first.

Maybe Jesus forgot that all men are born lost in sin??

If you believe that there is a bridge in Brooklyn that I will give you a good deal on.

 

Hi winman,

This could go on until one of us cedes or simply quits (which is my desire).

We have been down this road on more than one occassion and as I said from the beginning I am somewhat ambivalent about "original sin".

It's a misnomer IMO. Satan it appears is the "original sinner". As far as the RCC doctrine of human Original Sin: No amount of water can wash away any sin or remove our natural bent toward sin. I have never met a Baptist who supported the doctrine of original sin who believed that anyway.

One thing I can't overcome is Romans 5:12 and the grammar and wording.

BOTH sin and death passed through the entire human race there in the garden.

I know you don't agree but it is a theological statement of Paul and not a lesson taught by a parable. I have gone over the wording, grammar and verb tenses several times.

Yes, I am able to say very young children are "very good" but that doesn't mean they don't have both the ability and absolute potential to sin ACTUALLY (with understanding and the exercise of the will) in the future and that because they are the children of Adam. No one teaches them to sin also, its a universal trait.

Romans 3

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.​

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

I can look at a documentary about baby lion cubs acting very cute, playing with its siblings and seemingly harmless, but because it is a lion it is a predator nonetheless in spite of its seeming innocence and cuteness.

We also disagree about Christ's personal ability to sin or not, yes He is God come in the flesh, almighty God who became flesh (mortal and subject to death) and of the seed of Abraham but He was born of a virgin (the ramification and reason for which we also disagree). I don't believe Jesus was capable of lying but I'll ask Him some day. As for the pharisees He was simply meeting the pharisees where they were and what they thought of Him at the time.

Justification other than faith in Jesus : with God all things are possible.
John the Baptist was full of the Holy Ghost even from His mother's womb,
therefore he must have been regenerated in the womb.

The parable of the "prodigal" was indeed given to the pharisees who believed that the masses could not be saved as they did not keep the law or had violated it beyond the reach of God. This parable is not explained in detail like a couple of those in Matthew 13.

Yes, in the very day that they ate of the fruit they were separated from God and began to die physically which is a definite and possible idiom from the Hebrew "dying you shall die".

But as I said and have said before, if it were not for Romans 5 your view would make sense.

HankD

 

So here we have it, according to Winmans misinterpretation, Jesus 'had the ability to lie.'

Ponder that indictment for a moment.

And yet we have the theology of Winman. Like I've always told you, you know what a verse says, but you have little ability to interpret Scripture correctly and there is a huge difference between knowing what it says and knowing what it means.

Jesus was using a figure of speech in essence. He cannot lie. He is Holy, Righteous, Just, Pure, THE Spotless Lamb, there is no darkness in Him -- in fact it is impossible for Him to sin, yet you say it is possible for Him to sin because He can lie according to you.

You're failure comes from being incapable of recognizing figures of speech, in taking things for face value when a deeper truth is being conveyed, and a failure of not interpreting statements from the entire counsel of God (failing to rightly handle the Word of Truth) and much much more. These are some ways you arrive at fallacious conclusions.

It is impossible for God to lie, yet you say God could lie. Yet Scripture refutes your error and says that is an impossibility. IMPOSSIBLE. Thus it is a blasphemous thing you are asserting about the Son of the living God that He can lie.

'...so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.' Hebrews 6:18

Yet you say it is possible for God to lie. Now, one more factor, possibly you are denying the Deity of Christ as well? Do tell that you do know He is 100% God and man.

The fact is Jesus could never lie, it is an impossibility, therefore you are misinterpreting the text and straining it to arrive at your erroneous unorthodox conclusions.

You are in grave error.

 

Why would the Spirit lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil if he could not sin?

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

What kind of test would it be if Jesus could not sin? Does that make sense?

That is funny, do you even pay attention to your own words? You are criticizing me for understanding the scriptures for WHAT THEY SAY. Now that is truly comical.

No, Jesus always knew EXACTLY what he was saying and did not make mistakes. The word "if" implies that it was possible for him to lie. It is also implied in Mat 4:1 that Jesus could sin, else it would be nonsensical for the Holy Spirit to test him. The Holy Spirit does not do nonsensical things.

And I know why you cannot understand scripture.

I agree it is impossible for God in heaven to lie, it is also impossible for God in heaven to die, but Jesus was able to die. Jesus truly came in the flesh and was subject to our exact weaknesses. He felt the tug and pull of temptation just like us. When he fasted for 40 days, afterward he was starving. Satan knew this and this is why Satan tempted him to turn stones into bread. God in heaven cannot be tempted (Jam 1:13), but Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15).

Your problem is that you do not know scripture.

Again, this is speaking of God in heaven.

I didn't say it, Jesus himself implied it. I showed the scripture.

I disagree, it would have been nonsensical to tempt Jesus if he could not sin, and Jesus himself implied he could lie. I believe Jesus.

That said, Jesus absolutely NEVER committed ANY sin.

 

If Jesus could sin, He is no better than me or you.

God cannot sin because it's against His nature.

Jesus is and always has been God.

 

Yes, it does make sense, doesn't it?

We will have to agree to disagree. Romans 5:12 says that death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Augustine did not know Greek well and used a flawed Latin text that said "in whom all sinned" which he interpreted to be speaking of Adam. This is where Original Sin came from. The Eastern church which used only Greek texts strongly disagreed with Augustine and said the verse should be translated "because" or "for that all have sinned" meaning death passed on all men because they have personally sinned. This is an historical fact that can be looked up.

Scripture repeatedly says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, and that men shall die for their OWN sin.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

2 Chr 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

Now, here it is clear that God said the fathers shall not die for the children, neither the children shall die for the fathers, but EVERY MAN shall die for HIS OWN SIN.

God is not a hypocrite who breaks his own laws, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being hypocrites.

 

Then why did the Spirit lead him out into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil?

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Can God die?

Did Jesus die?

Does God need sleep?

Did Jesus need sleep?

You folks don't realize it, but you are denying that Jesus came in the flesh. The scriptures warn that anyone who denies Jesus came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.

1 Jhn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You are not even aware of what you are doing.

 

Yes. And we have an opponent to this truth.

I've never met a Baptist who believes this.

 

For our benefit, not God's (accept to glorify Him).

But to show through the testimony of the word of God just what many have said, that He was incapable of sin.

And as as the devil found out as well.

HankD

 

This is a serious allegation winman.

To deny that Jesus came in the flesh is to deny His humanity.

But to say that He could sin is to deny His deity:

Hebrews 6

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:​

You say that it was possible for Him to lie?​

How do you know then that this is not a lie:​

John 6
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wisecast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.​

If we believe that Jesus could lie then why not just throw away one's Bible?
Wasn't this the Original Sin, to imply that God could lie?

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
​

HankD​

 

Jesus had to defeat Satan as a man. Satan had defeated man in Adam, Jesus had to redeem men as a man. Jesus had to fight in the same way and power as a man, by trust and obedience to God's word. Thus, Jesus answered every temptation by quoting scripture.

If Jesus could not have sinned, then there would be no real test, no real victory as a man over sin.

If Jesus could not sin, then it would be a lie to imply he could, and any test would have been deceptive and misleading. It would only "appear" to be a test when it was no test at all.

 

And you are not getting it, God cannot die, but Jesus died. God does not get tired or hungry, Jesus had to eat and to sleep.

Yes, Jesus is God, but he was also 100% man, and this is how he had to defeat Satan, as a man. It is no contest for God in heaven to defeat Satan, but it is a contest for a man to defeat Satan, and this is the victory that Jesus won for man.

The scriptures clearly say God cannot be tempted (Jam 1:13), and the same scriptures say Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). That might seem like a contradiction to you, but it is not.

The scriptures say it is impossible for God to lie, I agree. But Jesus said "and IF I should say, I know him not, I SHALL be a liar like unto you"

Don't you think that Jesus could easily have said, "I cannot lie"? or "It is impossible for me to lie"?

But Jesus absolutely implied that it was possible for him to lie. The word "if" implies that possibility. Jesus did not make mistakes or a slip of the tongue.

It is you that does not understand, you are denying Jesus's humanity, that he came in the flesh, the very thing warned about in 1 John 4:1-3.

 

I'm not intimidated winman because I know Him and He knows me and we have walked together for over 50 years.

If Jesus could lie then the Father could lie:

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.​

There was no sin in Jesus whatsoever:​

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, TheHoly Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.​

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.​

HankD​

 

I am not trying to intimidate you, I am simply pointing out that Jesus was different as a man. God cannot starve to death, but Jesus was starving when he fasted 40 days. God does not need to sleep, but Jesus had to sleep just like you and me.

It makes no sense for the Holy Spirit to lead Jesus out into the wilderness for the express purpose of being tempted if he could not sin.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Folks don't get it, Jesus felt temptation just like you and I, he SUFFERED being tempted, he had to struggle against sin.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Scripture says Jesus was not a high priest that could not be TOUCHED with the FEELING of our INFIRMITIES (weaknesses), but was in ALL POINTS tempted LIKE AS WE ARE.

Jesus was tempted just like you and I. He was not impervious to temptation, in fact, he struggled against sin MORE than us.

If Jesus simply could not sin, none of this would make sense. In his human nature he could sin, but he never did because he believed his Father and obeyed him. He showed the pattern how we as men can overcome sin.

 

Winman

[/QUOTE]



blaspheme - speak of in an irreverent or impious manner; "blaspheme God


The fact is, every time we do or say something that gives others a false representation of the glory, holiness, authority, and character of God, we commit blasphemy.
http://carm.org/could-jesus-sin
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-blaspheme.html#ixzz2VEEyU2NG


http://www.gotquestions.org/could-Jesus-have-sinned.html

http://www.lifehouse.org/tracts/jesussin.htm

 

To say that Jesus could sin, and yet, choose not to, is mind boggling. If that's the case, then Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Eleazar, David, Solomon, Samuel, Samson, take your pick or any other OT saint, or one of the 12 Apostles, and they could have done the job. Jesus, being GOD in the flesh, could not sin.

 

It is very sad indeed.....:BangHead::BangHead:

 

That is simply not so, no man but Jesus has ever lived without sinning.

Jesus had to defeat Satan as a man. He came in the nature of a man with man's infirmities. Jesus as a man had to rely on trusting God and obeying his word, and prayer. Jesus did miracles in the same way the prophets did miracles, by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit. He lived exactly as men had to do.

Tell me, why did God have to come to earth and be born as a man?

 

You should stick to what you know, copying and pasting creeds where other people tell you what to think.

Here, this is from one of your heros, he agrees with me.

http://www.ligonier.org/blog/could-jesus-have-sinned/

I hate to be in agreement with R.C. Sproul, but I have to be on this one, if Jesus as a man could not sin, then being tested was a charade.

 

To die for us. God, being Spirit, could not be nailed to the cross in Spirit form. But being made in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet w/o sin, He could be nailed to the cross and die for our sins.