Of course not. Any of the Elders who work hard at the teaching and the Word are worthy of double honor....this is not to imply there will be only one that will work hard. Yes, submit to the Elders...how can you submit to the Elders when the church has no Elders? Pastors think this means people are to submit to them. Show me anywhere where the Elders are not giver the task of shepherding and overseeing the Church....by the Holy Spirit.
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No pastors in the Bible
- Thread starter alvin
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:thumbs: Exactly.....:applause:
You wont be loved for those comments.....not on this board.
You have commented much on this topic but not one time have you demonstrated that a pastor has the right to subvert the Bible and supplant the role of the Elders. Not once. Either the Bible is right and you are wrong, or you are right and the Bible is wrong. WHich is it?
It is you who has not proven that the use of the term pastor does not mean shepherd and is unbiblical. You make false accusations and disrespect men of God whom you do not know. You are a child.
The term pastor is in no Greek manuscripts. The word pastor is Latin and it means shepherd...shepherd like someone who herds sheep. Nowhere does it mean an Elder, or someone who rules the church. The word did not even exist until the 14th Century so how could it mean anything to do with the Bible.
Aside from your false argument let's just say you are right. It still does not make a difference if the shepherd of the church is called a pastor, a shepherd, or and elder. There is no scripture that says only use certain terms to refer to the shepherd of the church. What your doing is pure legalism which is common in the house church movement.
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The plurality, though, could refer to the a single elder in several churches. Mind you, I believe in rule through a plurality of elders. I am simply saying that one of the elders has more authority than any one of the other elders and that one elder is the one who labors in word and doctrine.
That there can be, or perhaps should be, one man with more authority than his elder peers seems clear in that Paul said to Titus (a single person) "For this cause I left you in Crete that you might set in order the things that are lacking and that you might ordain elders in every city."
Now, either you believe in a bishop over several churches or over a city or you have to believe that Titus (not an apostle- keep in mind this is what we call a pastoral epistle) had more authority in each church in Crete than his elder peers.
The plurality, though, could refer to the a single elder in several churches. Mind you, I believe in rule through a plurality of elders. I am simply saying that one of the elders has more authority than any one of the other elders and that one elder is the one who labors in word and doctrine.
That there can be, or perhaps should be, one man with more authority than his elder peers seems clear in that Paul said to Titus (a single person) "For this cause I left you in Crete that you might set in order the things that are lacking and that you might ordain elders in every city."
Now, either you believe in a bishop over several churches or over a city or you have to believe that Titus (not an apostle- keep in mind this is what we call a pastoral epistle) had more authority in each church in Crete than his elder peers.
Well put Luke. Let me remind you that the term "Pastoral Epistles" was a term created in the 18th century. Nowhere is it suggested that Timothy was a pastor. In a college of Elders there will be different gifts, some will be better teachers than others, some better counselors, and some better managers all gifted byt the Spirit for their tasks. I do not think one will be, or should be, greater than others. All serving among equals. Remember, there are also no "Bishops" in the Bible. This is a corruption. The word that is translated Bishop...is the word for overseer and overseers ARE the Elders. No Bishops anywhere in the Bible, as there are no pastors.
I have a different take on the roles of Timothy and Titus. In both cases, Paul left them behind when he left and delegated to them his apostolic authority to do certain tasks in his place. So Timothy and Titus were, in effect, acting apostles to do what Paul would have done if he was still there.
The books of I Timothy and Titus were instructions on how to do Paul's apostolic responsibilities. Try reading these books with this in mind, and you will see what I mean.
You are very much right. My apologies.
True. Also note what Paul ask Titus to do: Titus 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.
I know I am late to this party, but let me chime in anyway.
While I think I agree with the heart of what you are saying (Plurality Elder, non-hierarchical church governance), I would point out a couple of things.
First, there is nothing wrong with calling Elders "pastors." Pastor just means shepherd, and is still used in some English speaking countries to denote this....in fact, it was used in 16th century England in some areas, when the KJV Bible was translated, which is why the King James Bible Says,
"Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
Notice it does not say "elders" there...that is because pastor and elder refers to the same office.
Second, there is no requirement in the New Testament stating how many elders a church should have. "Elders" are to be appointed; I agree in the best case scenario this would be multiple. But this is not actually commanded anywhere.
So, here is my thought. Each church should have at least one elder/pastor. That is all scripture tells us. Some churches do not have more than one person that qualifies: my church doesn't. As the sole Pastor/elder in my church, I have been trying to move our church to a plural eldership model, but I have no qualified men. Most of the men in my church are either not able to teach, or young, new believers. Thankfully, the Bible does not set a required number on the elders....one or more is fine.
While I think I agree with the heart of what you are saying (Plurality Elder, non-hierarchical church governance), I would point out a couple of things.
First, there is nothing wrong with calling Elders "pastors." Pastor just means shepherd, and is still used in some English speaking countries to denote this....in fact, it was used in 16th century England in some areas, when the KJV Bible was translated, which is why the King James Bible Says,
"Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"
Notice it does not say "elders" there...that is because pastor and elder refers to the same office.
Second, there is no requirement in the New Testament stating how many elders a church should have. "Elders" are to be appointed; I agree in the best case scenario this would be multiple. But this is not actually commanded anywhere.
So, here is my thought. Each church should have at least one elder/pastor. That is all scripture tells us. Some churches do not have more than one person that qualifies: my church doesn't. As the sole Pastor/elder in my church, I have been trying to move our church to a plural eldership model, but I have no qualified men. Most of the men in my church are either not able to teach, or young, new believers. Thankfully, the Bible does not set a required number on the elders....one or more is fine.
Elders are Elders, shepherding is a function of the Elders. The title pastor is absolutely misleading as it implies "one" is the shepherd and not a function of the Elders. No, pastor and elder are not the same office as pastor is not an office at all, and shepherding is a function...of Elders. In Ephesians 4:11 there is no pastor...it is the Greek word for shepherd and it is translated shepherd everywhere in the NT, and elsewhere in all classical Greek...as shepherd and never as a religious office called a "pastor." Yes, all churches were to have Elders because the plural is used. Alway this is true unless it is speaking of a specific Elder. If...you do not have any qualified people to be the Elders of your Church then you are not ready to be a Church, but a Bible study. There is nothing wrong with that. Keep working and God will send the Holy SPirit appointed Elders. I know this to be true for that is what it says in the Bible. Churches become fully independent only when they have Elders. Thank you for your comments.
Unfortunately he has been brainwashed by Frank Viola and the house church movement.
That is absolutely the most Un-Biblical tripe I have ever heard.
Again, you cannot invent commands in the Bible, by looking at how things happened. There is NO COMMAND for multiple eldership, and indeed, churches were formed WITHOUT elders...they were appointed later. Paul sent Timothy and Titus to churches that were already formed, and which he referred to as "Churches" to appoint elders at a later time.
Second, you are playing silly semantic games. "Shepherd" or "Pastor" most certainly IS an office in the Church. It is the office of "Elder" or "Overseer." Again, SCRIPTURE...
Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
I guess "apostle" is not an office either?
And no, "pastor" is NOT a Greek word. The Greek word is "poimen", and can be translated in English as EITHER "pastor" or "Shepherd." Its two words for the same thing. You might as well be saying, "Its not a car, its an automobile!" You are just being ridiculous.
As for our local church, you offensive little man, this is the only church in the area, and it is most certainly a "church." You don't get to make that determination.
Ahh, well now it makes sense. Why on earth would a Baptist follow the teachings of a Emergent church heretic like Frank Viola???
I suppose that is one way to dodge the question of:Hey, aren't we past the page limit moderators?
Which of these Bible verses says pastors are to shepherd the Church:
Acts 20:28 (To the Elders Paul says) Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood
Titus 1:5-9 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders (πρεσβύτερος) in every town, as I directed you.
This is God’s plan…it is the Holy Spirit that appoints the Elders. What part do you disagree?
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