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Featured Poll- Do babies that die go to hell?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, Aug 15, 2014.

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Poll- Do babies that die go to hell?

  1. All babies that die go to hell

    1 vote(s)
    2.8%

  2. All babies that die go to heaven

    27 vote(s)
    75.0%

  3. Elect babies go to heaven, non-elect babies go to hell

    3 vote(s)
    8.3%

  4. Other, please explain

    5 vote(s)
    13.9%
Top Posters
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  1. comitatus1

    comitatus1 New Member
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    I picked

    #2

    (Matt 19:14 [ESV2011])
    but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

    I realize it is hardly a slam dunk, but I think it is the closest the Bible comes to saying that any person who dies as a child is elect.

    Chris
     
    #61 comitatus1, Aug 16, 2014
  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Welcome to BB Chris and thanks for your vote!
     
    #62 Winman, Aug 16, 2014
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Usually in a debate forum we debate each other. I prefer not to debate a confession that I already know I disagree with in the first place. Confessions are pieces of paper, inanimate, like rocks.
     
    #63 DHK, Aug 16, 2014
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    I believe I was the third to post. Also see post 59 by GT.

    BTW hell is an ambiguous word. I showed in a post where David went to and as far as we know is still in Hades and as he said, he could not bring his son back but that he would go to him, therefore I assume that baby is also in Hades being Jesus to date is the only one whose soul hasn't been left in Hades.

    I will leave it up to someone else to show where in the word of God any baby has gone to heaven.

    Do we go somewhere or we with patience awaiting the hope that saves us?
     
    #64 percho, Aug 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2014
  5. Rolfe

    Rolfe Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #65 Rolfe, Aug 16, 2014
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    No one went to heaven before Jesus ascended to heaven and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. This is why Paul said if Jesus is not raised, our faith is vain and we are still in our sins. Until Jesus's blood was applied, our sins were not yet atoned for. That is why OT saints had to wait.

    1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    Until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat, all saints went down into the "paradise" section of hell, also called Abraham's bosom.

    This is why we see Samuel being brought "up" in 1 Samuel 28;

    1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

    I believe the scriptures show that Jesus went back down into the earth and led those OT saints in Abraham's bosom captive, and gave them the Holy Spirit.

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Now, this is speculation, but this might have occurred on the day of Pentacost. Perhaps that is also when Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth and gave those saints the Holy Spirit as he did living saints in Jerusalem on Pentacost.

    We are now told to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so now Christians who die go straight to heaven. We now receive the Spirit the moment we believe.

    2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
     
    #66 Winman, Aug 16, 2014
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    That is the approach Mohler takes and I agree!
     
    #67 OldRegular, Aug 16, 2014
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Scripture states something different:

    Ecclesiastes 12:1-7
    1. Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
    2. While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
    3. In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
    4. And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
    5. Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
    6. Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
    7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    John Gill writes of Verse 7 as follows:

     
    #68 OldRegular, Aug 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2014
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I am familiar with this scripture, I have used this same verse to argue we are not born sinful. Does God give us sinful spirits?

    Nevertheless, this verse does not specify when this would occur.
     
    #69 Winman, Aug 16, 2014
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    NO, but Adam does. :)
    It is called "the Adamic nature."
     
    #70 DHK, Aug 16, 2014
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Then you did not read the scripture, it says our spirits will return to God "who gave it"

    Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    You got your body from your parents, and ultimately Adam and Eve, but you got your spirit directly from God.

    This is said repeatedly in scripture.

    Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

    Our spirit is given to us by God, not our parents. Our spirit is formed within us by God, not our parents.

    Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

    Our souls are also made by God and not received from our parents.

    If you believe we are born with an evil soul and spirit, you would have to believe God creates evil.

    Someday you are going to see that VOLUMES of scripture refutes Original Sin, but I am not holding my breath.
     
    #71 Winman, Aug 16, 2014
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The teaching is not in Scripture at all. I explained the context of this book to you once, but you rejected it.
    The meaning of this verse, by your interpretation is absurd. If all spirits return to God, then the natural conclusion is that Hitler and Stalin are enjoying sweet fellowship with such Apostles as Peter and John. Not much of a heaven is it? Are you a universalist? That is what universalists use this verse for--to teach their doctrine.
    But that is not what Solomon had in mind at all. That was not the purpose of his book.

    I will give you a hint. Hopefully you can figure out the rest.
    The theme of this book is stated clearly many times throughout:
    Vanity of vanities saith the preacher; all is vanity.

    Is everything vanity or emptiness to you, Winman? Is that the proper Christian outlook on life? If a "Christian" told me that was his outlook on life that I would question his salvation.
    Our outlook: "joy unspeakable and full of glory;" rejoice in the Lord alway, and again I say rejoice."
    Consider the fruit of the Spirit.

    Life is not vanity as Solomon says. So why does he say it? Figure that out and you will have the key to understanding the book and be able to put the Scripture into its proper context.
     
    #72 DHK, Aug 16, 2014
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Actually there is a Version with modifications by Spurgeon which changes that statement!

     
    #73 OldRegular, Aug 16, 2014
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I will take Gill's exegesis of Ecclesiastes 12:7 over DHK's eisegesis of that same Scripture any time.
     
    #74 OldRegular, Aug 16, 2014
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46 YLT

    At that very moment the once living soul Jesus, born of Mary, was d e a d.

    At that very moment the soul Jesus was in Hades where David prophesied it would not be left. See Acts 2:27-31 The body was still on the cross subject to corruption yet it would not see corruption, for God the Father of Jesus would give Jesus the sure mercies of David. See Acts 13:33,34

    Soul and spirit are not the same.

    A living soul is a body being alive because it has from God spirit of the breath of life. The body without spirit is dead and so also is the soul.

    Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    The soul was resurrected from Hades and the flesh was resurrected incorruptible.

    David is both dead (soul) and buried (flesh and did see corruption).
    Acts 2:29 see also Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption

    But he, (Jesus) whom God raised again, saw no corruption. V37

    The exact same meaning in Ecc 12.

    Jesus being the exception because God his Father raised him from the dead.

    Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )
     
    #75 percho, Aug 16, 2014
  16. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    WHAT? he altered The 1689? Gasp! Don't try that nowdays:thumbs:
     
    #76 Jerome, Aug 16, 2014
  17. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Peter was not speaking of David's soul here, but his body. His body was still in the grave and had seen corruption.

    Jesus's body on the other hand saw no corruption, proving he was the Christ David had prophesied of.

    Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    Peter is speaking of physical resurrection here, not the spirit or soul. He is saying that David's body is still in the grave, so he is not the Christ.

    Jesus on the other hand has been "raised". This is speaking of his body. Jesus has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven before over 500 person's eyes.

    You are confusing what is being taught here.
     
    #77 Winman, Aug 16, 2014
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the 1689 Confession of Faith regarding infants. Rather I believe That Mohler is correct in his understanding of the fate of those who die in infancy. Following is an excerpt from Mohler's paper which I referenced earlier.

    I also posted earlier a link to Spurgeon's revision to the 1689 Confession. However, one thing is certain: Salvation is in the hands of God alone.
     
    #78 OldRegular, Aug 16, 2014
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Translation; BABIES ARE NOT SINNERS.

    This would be comical if it were not so tragic. People come up with all sorts of non-scriptural ways for God to save babies. Why? Because deep down in their hearts everyone knows babies are not sinners and do not deserve hell.

    It should be the simplest thing in all the world to know all babies who die go to heaven, but there is one tremendous error that prevents men from doing this, the blasphemous doctrine of Original Sin. This doctrine was completely unknown to the Jews or the early Christian church. It was only the corrupt Catholic church under Augustine that invented this hideous doctrine.

    But no one believes it, because it is unbelieveable. No sane, rational man can really believe that a newborn baby is a wicked sinner that deserves to be tortured for eternity.

    But because man cannot give up this awful error of Original Sin, they must invent all sorts of new error to cover up OS. God has to save babies without faith in Jesus.

    But it was Jesus who spoke of just persons who never went astray, and needed no repentance.

    Pray tell, who could ever qualify as these persons?

    Amazing, folks just cannot put it together. :rolleyes:.
     
    #79 Winman, Aug 16, 2014
  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

    A part of the resurrection is that the soul was not left to Hades.

    That scripture can not be any cleared than what it says. The soul was inclusive in the rising again, resurrection.
     
    #80 percho, Aug 16, 2014
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