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Poll- Do babies that die go to hell?

Poll- Do babies that die go to hell?


  • Total voters
    36

comitatus1

New Member
Site Supporter
I picked

#2

(Matt 19:14 [ESV2011])
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

I realize it is hardly a slam dunk, but I think it is the closest the Bible comes to saying that any person who dies as a child is elect.

Chris
 

Winman

Active Member
#2

(Matt 19:14 [ESV2011])
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

I realize it is hardly a slam dunk, but I think it is the closest the Bible comes to saying that any person who dies as a child is elect.

Chris

Welcome to BB Chris and thanks for your vote!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You were the one asking for a well thought out answer. He provided one... perhaps not his own but rather others who used the Bible to think out well good answers.
Usually in a debate forum we debate each other. I prefer not to debate a confession that I already know I disagree with in the first place. Confessions are pieces of paper, inanimate, like rocks.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why don't you tell us what you believe first?

I believe I was the third to post. Also see post 59 by GT.

BTW hell is an ambiguous word. I showed in a post where David went to and as far as we know is still in Hades and as he said, he could not bring his son back but that he would go to him, therefore I assume that baby is also in Hades being Jesus to date is the only one whose soul hasn't been left in Hades.

I will leave it up to someone else to show where in the word of God any baby has gone to heaven.

Do we go somewhere or we with patience awaiting the hope that saves us?
 
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Winman

Active Member
I believe I was the third to post. Also see post 59 by GT.

BTW hell is an ambiguous word. I showed in a post where David went to and as far as we know is still in Hades and as he said, he could not bring his son back but that he would go to him, therefore I assume that baby is also in Hades being Jesus to date is the only one whose soul hasn't been left in Hades.

I will leave it up to someone else to show where in the word of God any baby has gone to heaven.

Do we go somewhere or we with patience awaiting the hope that saves us?

No one went to heaven before Jesus ascended to heaven and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. This is why Paul said if Jesus is not raised, our faith is vain and we are still in our sins. Until Jesus's blood was applied, our sins were not yet atoned for. That is why OT saints had to wait.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat, all saints went down into the "paradise" section of hell, also called Abraham's bosom.

This is why we see Samuel being brought "up" in 1 Samuel 28;

1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

I believe the scriptures show that Jesus went back down into the earth and led those OT saints in Abraham's bosom captive, and gave them the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Now, this is speculation, but this might have occurred on the day of Pentacost. Perhaps that is also when Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth and gave those saints the Holy Spirit as he did living saints in Jerusalem on Pentacost.

We are now told to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, so now Christians who die go straight to heaven. We now receive the Spirit the moment we believe.

2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
#2

(Matt 19:14 [ESV2011])
but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.

I realize it is hardly a slam dunk, but I think it is the closest the Bible comes to saying that any person who dies as a child is elect.

Chris

That is the approach Mohler takes and I agree!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
No one went to heaven before Jesus ascended to heaven and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven. This is why Paul said if Jesus is not raised, our faith is vain and we are still in our sins. Until Jesus's blood was applied, our sins were not yet atoned for. That is why OT saints had to wait.

Scripture states something different:

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7
1. Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2. While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3. In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4. And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5. Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6. Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


John Gill writes of Verse 7 as follows:

Ver. 7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, &c.] The body, which is made of dust, and is no other in its present state than dust refined and enlivened; and when the above things take place, mentioned in Ec 12:6, or at death, it returns to its original earth; it becomes immediately a clod of earth, a lifeless lump of clay, and is then buried in the earth, where it rots, corrupts, and turns into it; which shows the frailty of man, and may serve to humble his pride, as well as proves that death is not an annihilation even of the body; see Ge 3:19 Job 1:21;

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it; from whom it is, by whom it is created, who puts it into the bodies of men, as a deposit urn they are entrusted with, and are accountable for, and should be concerned for the safety and salvation of it; this was originally breathed into man at his first creation, and is now formed within him by the Lord; hence he is called the God of the spirits of all flesh; see Ge 2:4 Zec 12:1 Nu 16:22. Now at death the soul, or spirit of man, returns to God; which if understood of the souls of men in general, it means that at death they return to God the Judge of all, who passes sentence on them, and orders those that are good to the mansions of bliss and happiness, and those that are evil to hell and destruction. So the Targum adds,

``that it may stand in judgment before the Lord;''

or if only of the souls of good men, the sense is, that they then return to God, not only as their Creator, but as their covenant God and Father, to enjoy his presence evermore; and to Christ their Redeemer, to be for ever with him, than which nothing is better and more desirable; this shows that the soul is immortal, and dies not with the body, nor sleeps in the grave with it, but is immediately with God. Agreeably to all this Aristotle {w} says, the mind, or soul, alone enters yurayen, from without, (from heaven, from God there,) and only is divine; and to the same purpose are the words of Phocylides {x},

``the body we have of the earth, and we all being resolved into
it become dust, but the air or heaven receives the spirit.''

And still more agreeably to the sentiment of the wise man here, another Heathen {y} writer observes, that the ancients were of opinion that souls are given of God, and are again returned unto him after death.

{w} De Generat. Animal. l. 2. c. 3.
{x} swma gar ek gaihv, &c. Poem. Admon. v. 102, 103. So Lucretius l. 2. "cedit item retro de terra", &c.
{y} Macrob. Saturnal. l. I. c. 10.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Scripture states something different:

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7
1. Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2. While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3. In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4. And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5. Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6. Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I am familiar with this scripture, I have used this same verse to argue we are not born sinful. Does God give us sinful spirits?

Nevertheless, this verse does not specify when this would occur.
 

Winman

Active Member
NO, but Adam does. :)
It is called "the Adamic nature."

Then you did not read the scripture, it says our spirits will return to God "who gave it"

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

You got your body from your parents, and ultimately Adam and Eve, but you got your spirit directly from God.

This is said repeatedly in scripture.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Our spirit is given to us by God, not our parents. Our spirit is formed within us by God, not our parents.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Our souls are also made by God and not received from our parents.

If you believe we are born with an evil soul and spirit, you would have to believe God creates evil.

Someday you are going to see that VOLUMES of scripture refutes Original Sin, but I am not holding my breath.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Then you did not read the scripture, it says our spirits will return to God "who gave it"

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
The teaching is not in Scripture at all. I explained the context of this book to you once, but you rejected it.
The meaning of this verse, by your interpretation is absurd. If all spirits return to God, then the natural conclusion is that Hitler and Stalin are enjoying sweet fellowship with such Apostles as Peter and John. Not much of a heaven is it? Are you a universalist? That is what universalists use this verse for--to teach their doctrine.
But that is not what Solomon had in mind at all. That was not the purpose of his book.

I will give you a hint. Hopefully you can figure out the rest.
The theme of this book is stated clearly many times throughout:
Vanity of vanities saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Is everything vanity or emptiness to you, Winman? Is that the proper Christian outlook on life? If a "Christian" told me that was his outlook on life that I would question his salvation.
Our outlook: "joy unspeakable and full of glory;" rejoice in the Lord alway, and again I say rejoice."
Consider the fruit of the Spirit.

Life is not vanity as Solomon says. So why does he say it? Figure that out and you will have the key to understanding the book and be able to put the Scripture into its proper context.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Well thought out and biblically based?

Huh?

Over at the Reformed Baptist Fellowship Blog, it is admitted that the "elect infants..." clause of The Confession "goes beyond the Scriptural teaching, and it probably would have been better omitted from the Confession, since it is arguably dubious."

http://reformedbaptistfellowship.or...friend-about-matt-19-14-and-infant-salvation/

Actually there is a Version with modifications by Spurgeon which changes that statement!

10. Effectual Calling

Those whom God has predestinated to life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time to effectually call by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God. He takes away their heart of stone and gives to them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good. He effectually draws them to Jesus Christ, yet in such a way that they come absolutely freely, being made willing by His grace.

This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not on account of anything at all foreseen in man. It is not made because of any power or agency in the creature who is wholly passive in the matter. Man is dead in sins and trespasses until quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit. By this he is enabled to answer the call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it. This enabling power is no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.

Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

Others are not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may experience some common operations of the Spirit, yet because they are not effectually drawn by the Father, they will not and cannot truly come to Christ and therefore cannot be saved. Much less can men who do not embrace the Christian religion be saved, however diligent they may be to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the requirements of the religion they profess.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm#part3
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Scripture states something different:

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7
1. Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
2. While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3. In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4. And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5. Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6. Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


John Gill writes of Verse 7 as follows:


and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46 YLT

At that very moment the once living soul Jesus, born of Mary, was d e a d.

At that very moment the soul Jesus was in Hades where David prophesied it would not be left. See Acts 2:27-31 The body was still on the cross subject to corruption yet it would not see corruption, for God the Father of Jesus would give Jesus the sure mercies of David. See Acts 13:33,34

Soul and spirit are not the same.

A living soul is a body being alive because it has from God spirit of the breath of life. The body without spirit is dead and so also is the soul.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The soul was resurrected from Hades and the flesh was resurrected incorruptible.

David is both dead (soul) and buried (flesh and did see corruption).
Acts 2:29 see also Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption

But he, (Jesus) whom God raised again, saw no corruption. V37

The exact same meaning in Ecc 12.

Jesus being the exception because God his Father raised him from the dead.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )
 

Winman

Active Member
and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46 YLT

At that very moment the once living soul Jesus, born of Mary, was d e a d.

At that very moment the soul Jesus was in Hades where David prophesied it would not be left. See Acts 2:27-31 The body was still on the cross subject to corruption yet it would not see corruption, for God the Father of Jesus would give Jesus the sure mercies of David. See Acts 13:33,34

Soul and spirit are not the same.

A living soul is a body being alive because it has from God spirit of the breath of life. The body without spirit is dead and so also is the soul.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The soul was resurrected from Hades and the flesh was resurrected incorruptible.

David is both dead (soul) and buried (flesh and did see corruption).
Acts 2:29 see also Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption

But he, (Jesus) whom God raised again, saw no corruption. V37

The exact same meaning in Ecc 12.

Jesus being the exception because God his Father raised him from the dead.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )

Peter was not speaking of David's soul here, but his body. His body was still in the grave and had seen corruption.

Jesus's body on the other hand saw no corruption, proving he was the Christ David had prophesied of.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Peter is speaking of physical resurrection here, not the spirit or soul. He is saying that David's body is still in the grave, so he is not the Christ.

Jesus on the other hand has been "raised". This is speaking of his body. Jesus has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven before over 500 person's eyes.

You are confusing what is being taught here.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
You have no basis for your presumption as clearly multitudes of persons are not saved.The statement in the confession leaves salvation in the hands of God which you are not willing to do evidently.

My view is not presumption at all as that statement reflects the biblical understanding of both election and salvation.

No person will be saved apart from God's electing grace.

I disagree with the 1689 Confession of Faith regarding infants. Rather I believe That Mohler is correct in his understanding of the fate of those who die in infancy. Following is an excerpt from Mohler's paper which I referenced earlier.

We must remember that God is both omnipotent and omniscient. He gave these little ones life, knowing before the creation of the world that they would die before reaching moral maturity and thus the ability to sin by intention and choice. Did He bring these infants–who would never consciously sin–into the world merely as the objects of His wrath?

The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield certainly did not think so. These defenders of Reformed orthodoxy taught that those who die in infancy die in Christ. Hodge pointed to the example of Jesus: “The conduct and language of our Lord in reference to children are not to be regarded as matters of sentiment, or simply expressive of kindly feeling. He evidently looked upon them as lambs of the flock for which, as the Good Shepherd, He laid down his life, and of whom He said they shall never perish, and no man could pluck them out of his hands. Of such He tells us is the kingdom of Heaven, as though Heaven was, in good measure, composed of the souls of redeemed infants.”

Charles Spurgeon, the great evangelical preacher of Victorian England, and John Newton, the author of “Amazing Grace,” added pastoral urgency to this affirmation. Spurgeon was frustrated with preachers who claimed to have no answer to this question, and he hurled judgment on anyone who would claim that infants would populate Hell.

In the end, we must affirm the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the full authority of Scripture. We trust the goodness, mercy, justice, and love of God. Whatever He does is right. Salvation is all of grace, and there is no salvation apart from Christ. All are born sinners, and those who reach the point of accountability and consciously sin against God will be judged and punished for their sins in Hell–unless they have come by grace to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

B. B. Warfield may have expressed it best when he beautifully affirmed, “If all that die in infancy are saved, it can only be through the almighty operation of Holy Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases, through whose ineffable grace the Father gathers these little ones to the home He has prepared for them.”

Keep those words firmly in mind as you contemplate this great and often troubling question. The little ones are safe with Jesus.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=95032&page=8

I also posted earlier a link to Spurgeon's revision to the 1689 Confession. However, one thing is certain: Salvation is in the hands of God alone.
 

Winman

Active Member
We must remember that God is both omnipotent and omniscient. He gave these little ones life, knowing before the creation of the world that they would die before reaching moral maturity and thus the ability to sin by intention and choice. Did He bring these infants–who would never consciously sin–into the world merely as the objects of His wrath?

The great Princeton theologians Charles Hodge and B. B. Warfield certainly did not think so. These defenders of Reformed orthodoxy taught that those who die in infancy die in Christ. Hodge pointed to the example of Jesus: “The conduct and language of our Lord in reference to children are not to be regarded as matters of sentiment, or simply expressive of kindly feeling. He evidently looked upon them as lambs of the flock for which, as the Good Shepherd, He laid down his life, and of whom He said they shall never perish, and no man could pluck them out of his hands. Of such He tells us is the kingdom of Heaven, as though Heaven was, in good measure, composed of the souls of redeemed infants.”

Charles Spurgeon, the great evangelical preacher of Victorian England, and John Newton, the author of “Amazing Grace,” added pastoral urgency to this affirmation. Spurgeon was frustrated with preachers who claimed to have no answer to this question, and he hurled judgment on anyone who would claim that infants would populate Hell.

In the end, we must affirm the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the full authority of Scripture. We trust the goodness, mercy, justice, and love of God. Whatever He does is right. Salvation is all of grace, and there is no salvation apart from Christ. All are born sinners, and those who reach the point of accountability and consciously sin against God will be judged and punished for their sins in Hell–unless they have come by grace to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

B. B. Warfield may have expressed it best when he beautifully affirmed, “If all that die in infancy are saved, it can only be through the almighty operation of Holy Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases, through whose ineffable grace the Father gathers these little ones to the home He has prepared for them.”

Keep those words firmly in mind as you contemplate this great and often troubling question. The little ones are safe with Jesus.

Translation; BABIES ARE NOT SINNERS.

This would be comical if it were not so tragic. People come up with all sorts of non-scriptural ways for God to save babies. Why? Because deep down in their hearts everyone knows babies are not sinners and do not deserve hell.

It should be the simplest thing in all the world to know all babies who die go to heaven, but there is one tremendous error that prevents men from doing this, the blasphemous doctrine of Original Sin. This doctrine was completely unknown to the Jews or the early Christian church. It was only the corrupt Catholic church under Augustine that invented this hideous doctrine.

But no one believes it, because it is unbelieveable. No sane, rational man can really believe that a newborn baby is a wicked sinner that deserves to be tortured for eternity.

But because man cannot give up this awful error of Original Sin, they must invent all sorts of new error to cover up OS. God has to save babies without faith in Jesus.

But it was Jesus who spoke of just persons who never went astray, and needed no repentance.

Pray tell, who could ever qualify as these persons?

Amazing, folks just cannot put it together. :rolleyes:.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Peter was not speaking of David's soul here, but his body. His body was still in the grave and had seen corruption.

Jesus's body on the other hand saw no corruption, proving he was the Christ David had prophesied of.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Peter is speaking of physical resurrection here, not the spirit or soul. He is saying that David's body is still in the grave, so he is not the Christ.

Jesus on the other hand has been "raised". This is speaking of his body. Jesus has risen from the dead and ascended to heaven before over 500 person's eyes.

You are confusing what is being taught here.


YLT having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

A part of the resurrection is that the soul was not left to Hades.

That scripture can not be any cleared than what it says. The soul was inclusive in the rising again, resurrection.
 
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