Featured Calvinists, particularly one of you, prove that the following is untrue.

How merciful is that! actually, its downright confusing & creates animosity amongst the brethren & as we know "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

 

If we want to discuss the degree of mercifulness, then which of these is more merciful:

a. God commands all people to repent of their sins and provides them an opportunity, in some form or fashion, to come before the throne of grace and seek His mercy, through the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ, who now sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us...

or

b. God, the creator of all peoples, has already picked and chosen and made a final decision on who will be redeemed and who will suffer eternal punishment, and that same God forces those already chosen to repent by "regenerating" them, but He leaves the others to a life of wickedness and despair and never even gives them a chance to repent.

In my opinion, and from my study, one of those scenarios is Biblical and the other is not. One of those scenarios actually bears out what scripture says. The other requires a strained interpretation of scripture to follow. One of those scenarios negates several well-known verse of scripture. The other brings those verse to life in ways that ought to excite Christians.

But that's just me.

 

The problem is that your alternatives are false and thus your conclusions are false. Your alternatives do not rightly represent the truth which is:

1. God tests humanities obedience through a chosen representative wherein all potential humanity actually exists and actually act as one unfallen human nature through one man - Adam (Rom. 5:12,15-19). This man has the perfect environment to make such a choice. This man has the perfect nature (sinlessness) to make that choice. Yet the whole human nature with all of its potential in this one representative man acts to willfully choose to disobey God. Would God be perfectly just "in the day" they sinned to bring upon them instantly the full penalty of death - the eternal wrath of God in hell? If so, would not that include the whole of human nature with all of its potential diversity manifested in reproduction after its own kind? Therefore, would not God have been perfectly just to condemn the whole human race to hell?

2. Election assumes an already condemned state because it is election "UNTO" salvation,[2 Thes. 2:13) and "salvation" presumes the fall into sin already. Hence, election is wholly of God's grace (Rom. 11:5-6) and does not require God to save any justly condemned sinners. God is just in allowing sinners to go right on their way in rebellion and only merciful and gracious if He chooses to save any sinner. Hence, "not by works of righteousness which we have done but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY he saved us" (Tit. 3:5) when in fact he could have justly refused to save any of mankind but instantly condemned the whole race upon the day humanity acted in rebellion through their perfect representative - Adam.

3. God chose another representative man - Christ. To act in behalf of the elect, which he gave according to His purpose OF GRACE unto Christ (2 Tim. 1:7)to save before the foundation of the world (Jn. 6:38-39; Eph. 1:4). Christ another sinless man, did always those things that please the Father and then willing laid down his own life for "his sheep" to redeem them from sin and therefore will not lose one of them (Jn. 6:38-39). The elect are no more worthy of salvation than the non-elect but salvation is according to God's purpose of grace alone (Rom. 9:11).

4. The gospel is preached to all men everywhere because gospel preachers do not know who are and who are not the elect, AND because it is God's chosen means to call out His people through the preaching of the Gospel as He has chosen to exercise His regenerative power through the Word when it comes to the elect (1 Thes. 1:4-5) and the response of repentance and faith in the gospel is how the elect are made known.

5. Therefore, nothing prevents the worst sinner from coming to Christ and being saved except his own fallen depraved nature that willingly chooses to resist God (Rom. 8:7) AND nothing can be credited for the salvation of the elect solely but God's purpose of grace, as the elect would also freely of their own will have continued in willful rebellion against God just as the non-elect as both equally were sons of Adam's fallen nature, and equally deserving of instanteous destruction in hell "in the day" Adam and Eve sinned. Hence, all equally and justly deserve hell, and the salvation of any is solely an act of distinguishing grace undeserved but justly based upon the redemptive work of their representative.

So the truth is that ALL EQUALLY deserve hell and NONE deserve salvation. Hence, that frees God to act solely by justice or by grace and both glorify him without obligating him to save anyone or condemning him to save whom He wills. The non-elect have no one to blame but their own depraved choice to resist, and the elect have no one to praise but the free grace of God, and there testimony is "there go I but by the grace of God."

 

I based my alternatives off my study of the Bible and the information I've gleaned from talking with Calvinists and listening to them explain their beliefs.

How can man be accountable for choosing to disobey God if he does not have the ability to choose to obey God? Set a child down at a table, place nothing but blue crayons in front of them, and tell them they'll be punished if they don't choose a red crayon. That's the situation your statement places man in. The child in that scenario has no ability to choose a red crayon, yet you are going to punish him for not choosing one.

Again, how can man be responsible for not following God if, according to your scenario, he cannot choose God in the first place? But when Jesus stood looking at Jerusalem, He said that it was His desire to gather them together, as a hen gathers her chick, but they were not willing. If God's grace alone is the only thing that can regenerate someone to make them choose God, and it takes God making that change in them first, meaning man has absolutely no input on his own salvation, then why wouldn't God forcibly make all men willing to come unto him?

So the only thing keeping a sinner from coming to God for salvation is their own depraved nature, and the only thing that can bring a sinner to God is God's grace? Yet that doesn't hold water. If it requires God's grace and God's will to regenerate someone, then you can't hold only the person accountable for not coming to God, because obviously God did not choose to regenerate that person.

 

The Biblicist

[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this solid post:thumbsup::wavey:

 

DHK

Answering your errors is like a full time job:thumbsup:

In the larger scheme of things John 8:44 was spoken to all the lost, not just the Pharisees. In its immediate context he was speaking to the Pharisees (among whom was Saul, Nicodemus, and Joseph of Arimathea--all part of the Sanhedrin). Were they also all part of the "non-elect." Your statement is too judgmental and is in error. You don't have the Biblical facts to make such a statement.
"These are non elect being sent to hell."

Once again you demonstrate no understanding of the biblical doctrine of election as revealed in scripture. Saul....was never part of the "non elect"

His election was before the world was created.

Jesus is God DHK!....[let me answer like you do to us:laugh:]

Do you deny Jesus is God? Are you saying that Jesus did not know if these men were children of the devil? If you deny Jesus is God, you do not have the Father either....All heretics deny Jesus is God you know....you better be careful what you post DHK...we all believe Jesus is God:wavey: Do you?

Of course there is no strawman here.....no...just seems as if you were saying this......That is what you do most of the time....

 

Jump on in, the water's fine this beautiful day. :wavey:

According to Paul's preaching in Athens, in his discourse on the "Unknown God," Paul states that God made "the world and all things therein." Paul goes on to assert that all the nations of the earth were made from one blood, and that God has set the bounds of their [all nations] habitation, but that they may seek after God, and may find Him, though He be not far from any of us. Why would Paul say this of all nations if it were not true?

I guess I just haven't yet gotten used to this idea that when the Bible says something like "all nations" it doesn't actually mean "all nations."

What about Paul's writing to the churches in Galatia? Paul speaks at length about the brethren in Galatia, who at best were Gentiles, being sons of the free woman (Jerusalem above). I take nothing away from Israel's standing, but I also recognize that the scripture says "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Rom 1:16)

So when the scripture says God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, it does not, in fact, mean "any" and "all?"

And there's the rub. We both read the same scripture, and we both see things differently. Such differences of opinion can lead us to quickly denounce our brother as "false" or as a "heretic," when it's often nothing more than we interpret some verse of scripture differently than they do.

Agreed...God's ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

 

That is what the REPRESENTATIVE MAN did in behalf of whom he REPRESENTED. Adam did have the power to freely choose and He did as YOUR REPRESENTATIVE and he did sin AS YOUR REPRESENTATIVE and he was condemened justly AND ALL HE REPRESENTED. Therefore YOU DID when HE DID as that is the idea behind REPRESENTATION is it not? Is not that true of the elect and Christ? When he obeyed God as the REPRESENTATIVE of the elect they obeyed God "in him."

Likewise, the elect do not personally, individually provide obedience to God for their justification as that was provided by REPRESENTATIVE man - Christ.

YOU PERSONALLY sinned "in Adam" just as the elect personally obeyed God "in Christ". In Adam you sinned with full ability of choice as you existed "in Adam" as one unfallen sinless human nature, which nature is passed down to you through birth. Therefore, "all have sinned" (aorist tense - Rom. 5:12 when Adam sinned). Therefore, every man is responsible for his own irreversable depraved resistant condition (Rom. 8:7). Likewise, the nature of Christ is imparted to us by new birth but our justification is by IMPUTATION due to REPRESENTATION. Hence, the non-elect have none to blame but themselves for their own condition and condemnation and the elect have no one to thank but the grace of God.

You completely missed the point! You are accountable in Adam for your own condition as he REPRESENTED you AND because you actually existed as one human nature "in Adam" freely choosing to sin. Therefore God is not obligated to have grace upon those who freely choose to sin, indeed the very idea that God could be obligated for grace is an oxymoronic statement as the very meaning of grace is "undeserved" whereas "obligate" not only means deserved but God would be held responsible if grace is not given. God's wrath is perfectly just if he condemned Adam and Eve with the whole human race to hell "IN THE DAY" they ate. Only God's purpose of Grace spared all humanity from instant wrath.

 

PreachTony

First you should read the two replys from Biblicist and PYB more carefully.The scripture does not say what you say here......pay attention to the whole section..God is long suffering ...TO-USWARD...not willing that any perish.

.

yes...you only used part of the verse...the letter was written to the elect.

because you ignore the ...to usward:thumbs: God is very willing that many perish...MT 7;21-24

Or we skip over the parts of the verse that will explain it.:thumbs:

 

There is no strawman here Icon. It seems, rather, that you are unwilling to honestly deal with Scripture.

Look at Eph.2:1 for example. Even though Paul was writing to just the Ephesians, you correctly apply this verse to all believers.
(And don't get sidetracked into the subject of election. This has nothing to do with election. Keep that pet doctrine of yours for the Cal/Arm forum.)

[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;[/FONT]
ALL were dead in trespasses in sins. Even though he is writing to the Ephesians no one disputes that every person is dead in sin before they are saved. The inference is made from this verse. I have never heard any argument to the contrary.
But now, they they Ephesians, are made alive (by the work of the Holy Spirit). [For by grace are ye saved]. No one argues this either for that is what Paul goes on to explain. Once they were dead in sins; now they are alive in Christ. Something happened. What was it? They were regenerated/saved.

Now inasmuch as you are willing to accept the truths taught by those verses and apply them to all--both unbelievers and then believers, why are you not willing to do the same with John 8:44??

[FONT=&quot]John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.[/FONT]
--Here, instead of admitting that this is applicable to all unsaved, you immediately claim that this is written to the non-elect only. That is a false statement. For among those "Non-elect" stood Saul, Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimetha---all members of the Sanhedrin; all Pharisees at that time. They were all "elect before the foundation of the world." But at this time they were not saved, and thus part of the family of Satan.
They were, as Eph.2:1 describes, "dead in sin." They needed to be made alive spiritually. They did not yet have that spiritual life--not at this point. They were still unsaved, their hearts darkened with sin. They had not accepted Christ as their Messiah, their Savior. At this point they still rejected him.

Your statement concerning John 8:44:
"These are non elect being sent to hell."

is absolutely wrong and unscriptural. Among those who Christ spoke to, when he said those words, were "the elect," that is those who in the future would trust Christ. So don't say that this statement was directed only to the non-elect being sent to hell.
Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimetha, and Saul of Tarsus were not being sent to Hell. God foreknew their destination, whereas you did not and could not. Election is not for you. You don't decide. God does. Therefore don't go making off the wall statements of who is elect and who is not, especially when Scripture proves otherwise.

 

Okay, Icon, two things:
1. Who is making the call that the "us-ward" signifies the Elect?
That, too, requires interpolation that, while you say it applies to the Elect, I can just as easily say that it applies to all of Peter's readers (hey, I'm a poet and didn't know it :smilewinkgrin Peter notes that the epistle is written to the "beloved." Are only our fellow believers counted among the "beloved?"
and
2. If they are Elect, then how could they perish?
I was under the impression that the Elect were chosen of God from before the foundation of the world, and, to hear and read certain Calvinists, the Elect have no choice but to be redeemed, therefore they cannot perish. So it then becomes a useless sentence for Peter to write that none should perish if the group he's talking to lacks the ability to "perish."
.

My apologies, Icon. From now on I'll only reference the entire verse...though, seeing as the division into chapters and verses didn't even begin until after 1200 AD, if we want "original meaning" I suppose we'll all have to begin quoting the entire book. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Just as an aside, Icon...but to show you the differences we have in opinion over the reading...

When I read your reply to me, I couldn't help but get the sense that you read Matthew 7:21-24 and see God as excited and joyful over the destruction of those people. (perhaps it's the "thumbs"-guy right before it the gives off that vibe)

When I read Matthew 7:21-24, I can't help but read it as though God is saddened by the destruction of those who thought they were doing right, even though they never knew Him. Sure, not everyone who claims the name of the Lord is saved, we can all admit that as fact. But I truly believe that some of the people cast into damnation at judgment will believe they were in the right all along, right up until God turns them away.

And I do believe God is saddened by that. But, as we've established, apparently I believe very differently from a lot of people around here.

 

There is no wrinkles in Gods brow or His hair has not turned white or is He sad at any time because of the actions of man. Job 35:5-8 Look unto the heavens and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou. If thou sinneth, what doest thou against him ? or if thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou to him ? If thou be righteous, what givest thou him ? or what receiveth he of thine hand ? Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man. Job 22:2-4 Can a man be profitable to God, as he that is wise may be profitable to himself ? Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous ? or is it gain to him that thou makest thy ways perfect ? Will he reprove thee for fear of thee ? will he enter with thee into judgment ? If God is sad it would be because of lack of power to control. If God has no power to control then he himself is controlled by a outside force, hence the outside force has become god.

 

PreachTony

okay,,,lets take a look:thumbsup:

The thumbs up guy was not to rejoice in the plight of the wicked...it was to identify where your thinking is going contrary to scripture:thumbsup:

I do not think it is wise to speculate and ascribe human emotions to our infinite God. I understand what you are trying to convey,,,,but it is more your emotional take.

God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked we are told in scripture.

Sad but true.

exactly....

This is a topic of it's own....but I do not believe this as it would go against the revealed attributes of our Holy God.

Listen...we are all learning here. We get to interact, react, build up, correct, be corrected here.
You seem like a nice person, however truthfully by your posts it is evident that you have heard several wrong ideas, or have come to those conclusions on your own.
In either case, such ideas when posted will be addressed.:type:

 

PreachTony

I believe it is the Holy Spirit having the Apostles inform us of this fact.

let's see how peter uses it;
I am working from back to front in this thread. while you were trying a bit of humor or sarcasm when you mentioned the verses being added;

Nevertheless...it is always helpful to read the whole writing to get the flow of it, for example....lets see the contrast that one of the other posters mentioned.

There is a contrast between those being saved and the unbelieving scoffers-



3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:2

That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.



[

 

they cannot...but Peter explains that God is longsuffering with the wicked so all of the elect will be saved.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


PT.....use scripture to find the answer...not your feelings- Peter mentions Paul concerning long-suffering...do you see it clearer now?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/B]
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

God allows the ungodly to breathe His air and profane His world, until the last of the elect are born and saved.

 

OK now....ive got a question about preaching to all. There are 2 coworkers and 1 brother in law who infatically (sic) insist that they are non believers and that they have renounced all belief in a higher power. They will even become verbally violent and condecending apon any mention of God, Christ and the Cross. One of these people is my boss who wanted to eliminate Christian holidays from our vacation work calander. Now do you expect me to preach to them or any other card carrying aethiest?