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Featured The Many Insurmountable Difficulties of Futurism: 144,000 Jewish Male Virgins

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Protestant, Dec 11, 2014.

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  1. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    According to classic Futurism 144,000 literal Jewish male virgins will be sealed, thereby protecting them from the ensuing horrors experienced by unbelievers during the ‘Great Tribulation’…..a time of extreme trouble caused by both the wrath of Antichrist and the Lord God Almighty.

    How these evangelists are sealed without the Holy Spirit who, at the Rapture left earth with Christians, is a mystery.

    Be that as it may, now divinely protected, these 144,000 Jewish ‘Billy Grahams’ will evangelize the world resulting in innumerable converts as exemplified in Rev. 7:9 ff.

    Mind you, all this will be accomplished in 3 ½ years.

    Futurists typically take the literalist view when it comes to prophetic interpretation, falling back to a spiritual application only when absolutely necessary.

    So let us assume the Futurist literal interpretation in explaining how this scenario could play out.

    What is the likelihood of 144,000 21st century male Jews maintaining their virginity until, say, age 21 in order to qualify them for divine sealing?

    Iffy at best?

    But what about 144,000 12-year-old male Jews?

    Now we have a realistic scenario.

    And what about 144,000 Jewish homosexuals who have ‘never been defiled with women?’

    Certainly they qualify in that regard.

    Next, we must determine the literal tribe to which their unbroken line of ancestors belonged centuries earlier.

    Although the genealogical records no longer exist, certainly God knows.

    Yes, God knows.

    God knows that since the Diaspora the Jews have intermarried with non-Jews for centuries.

    A ‘pure’ bloodline no longer exists.

    But let us move on to other matters.

    The 144,000 Jewish male virgins, should they exist, must now learn the Gospel clearly enough so that they are qualified to ably preach it and defend it before the masses of unbelievers worldwide.

    It took the Apostles some 3 ½ years to prepare for their missionary work.

    And they had the Lord Jesus as their personal instructor.

    The Apostle Paul was 17 years in preparation.

    Nevertheless, our Jewish male virgin evangelists have but days to prepare for their mission, during which time they must also learn numerous languages and dialects.

    Intolerable Conditions Hamper Preaching

    It would be one thing if conditions were conducive to preaching the Gospel to unbelievers.

    But in the Great Tribulation they are anything but friendly.

    On the one hand you have Antichrist and his demonic host seeking to kill all those who refuse his mark.

    On the other hand you have wrath of the Almighty sending hail and fire mixed with blood causing innumerable forest and prairie fires; 1/3 of the oceans turning to blood making it difficult for ships to stay afloat while another 1/3 of the ships are destroyed outright.

    What with dodging falling stars, avoiding undrinkable waters of Wormwood, navigating through unknown territories in darkness without the light of the sun, moon or stars --- not to mention dealing with the sudden drop to frigid temperatures – our 144,000 Jewish male virgins have their work cut out for them.

    And have I mentioned the plague of locust scorpions along with the ravages of the 2,000,000,000 man army of brimstone and fire breathers?

    I can almost envision the following scenario:

    Matt, a determined Jewish evangelist, has managed to coax a group of petrified Gentiles out of the cave in which they had been hiding from the Antichrist.

    Matt tells them of the love of God who has a wonderful plan for the lives when a 100 pound hailstone falls out of the sky landing on the small group.

    Nonplussed, Matt turns to the next cave, crying, “Hi there! I bring the Good News of the Gospel!”

    A voice replies, "We just saw your Good News. Thanks but no thanks!"
     
    #1 Protestant, Dec 11, 2014
  2. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Next up I look forward to how you tell us that a 7 day creation is impossible.
     
    #2 matt wade, Dec 11, 2014
  3. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Are you a follower of the teachings of multi-millionaire fiction writer, Tim LaHaye?
     
    #3 Protestant, Dec 11, 2014
  4. just-want-peace

    just-want-peace Well-Known Member
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by matt wade
    Originally Posted by Protestant
    Boy, this answer-question combo would be a jewel for "JEOPARDY" - doubt anybody would get this one. :laugh:
     
    #4 just-want-peace, Dec 11, 2014
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are a skeptic. Did you know unbelief is sin? :)
    A mischaracterization; a falsehood due to a lack of knowledge of futurism.
    1. Jews will not be "Billy Grahams." Another uninformed mischaracterization.
    2. There is no description of these 144,000 evangelizing the world. Another uninformed mischaracterization. Find out what the futurist believes.
    What will be accomplished in 3 1/2 years. You don't know what you are talking about.
    Read a book on hermeneutics. It would do you a world of good. Proper hermeneutics (principles by which we understand the Bible) demands that we interpret the Bible literally unless context states otherwise. Allegorical interpretation is to be avoided. This isn't a rule of futurists. This is what is found in most hermeneutical texts no matter what their eschatological outlook may be.
    You have a dirty mind. [FONT=&quot]
    Like Lot, It has been vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:[/FONT] (2Pet.2:7).
    Who said they were 12 years old.
    Your mind--dirty and depraved.
    Read the chapter. 12 tribes of 12,000 each makes 144,000.
    You demonstrate a lack of faith and unbelief.
    So, God is too weak to keep His Word? This is your conclusion?
    Perhaps He is too weak to keep your salvation as well??
    What else would you like to question?
    Do you not even read the Bible anymore? Where does it say they become evangelists? Chapter and verse please!
    It took the Apostles some 3 ½ years to prepare for their missionary work.
    You are uninformed and falsely misrepresent the position of the futurists.
    Being ignorant is one thing. Lying out of ignorance is another.
    More uninformed ignorance from a fool that doesn't know his Bible.
    If you are going to represent someone's position then learn it first.
    Your silly imagination, but not what the Bible teaches. You need to study the Bible, not your imagination.
     
    #5 DHK, Dec 11, 2014
  6. Getting it Right

    Getting it Right Member
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    I was prepared to respond to "Protestant," Post #1, but then I noted that DHK had already mirrored the Biblical, Spiritual POV in his Post #5. Thanks, DHK.
     
    #6 Getting it Right, Dec 14, 2014
  7. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Please 'enlighten' me.

    If the Holy Spirit is not the 'Restrainer' (of 2 Thess. 2) who is the one removed allowing for the revealing of Antichrist, the Man of Sin, then who is the Restrainer?

    Furthermore, if the Church is raptured before the revelation of the Antichrist, the Man of Sin, as classic Futurism teaches, and the Holy Spirit is also removed from the earth, how then are the 144,000 Jews sealed?

    As stated in previous posts I had Hal Lindsey - the Godfather of Modern Evangelical Futurism - as my Futurist teacher at Tetelestai Christian Center, Torrence, CA.

    Are we to believe you presume Lindsey to be a false prophet?

    The 144,000 Jewish 'Billy Grahams' is an original Lindsey quote.

    The Internet will confirm this.

    Also, you might want to check out what a few of your Futurist brethren have to say on the subject:

    Rapture Ready: http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq570.html

    John MacArthur: "These Jewish believers and evangelists are the firstfruits of Israel, which as a nation will be redeemed before Christ returns (Zech. 12:10–13:1, 8–9; Rom. 11:26). The 144,000 are not all Jewish believers at that time, but a unique group selected to proclaim the gospel in that day (cf. 12:17; 14:1–5)." http://www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ031813/Who-Are-the-144000

    Dr. David Reagan & Zola Levitt:

    Should you take the trouble to do a modicum of research, Google "144,000 Jewish evangelists." The number of Futurist websites adhering to that doctrine is staggering.

    Apparently your version of Futurism is a well kept secret known only to few 'enlightened ones' such as yourself. :laugh:
     
    #7 Protestant, Dec 14, 2014
  8. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    I believe in your own mind you are an exegetical genius.:laugh:

    Let's take your hermeneutical approach and apply it to the very first vision . You know, the vision that sets the tone for the entire book of Revelation: The appearance of Jesus Christ.

    I await your literalist exegesis with fervent anticipation!
     
    #8 Protestant, Dec 14, 2014
  9. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Pope DHK, I beseech your holiness to pardon my Bible ignorance for I have not the intelligence nor royal manners such as your holiness displays on a regular basis.

    Perchance my lord would do me, a nothing peasant, a very great favor and explain how it is our holy God needs virgins -- undefiled by women, who have never touched nor been touched by women -- before He can seal them for whatever purpose? (Evangelizing or not).

    With bated breath I await thee.
     
    #9 Protestant, Dec 14, 2014
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Do you believe in the Trinity? The Holy Spirit is God, deity, the third person of the triune Godhead. As such, He is omni-present, meaning everywhere.
    Just before the Tribulation occurs the rapture takes place. The Bible calls the believer in Christ: the salt of the earth, the light of the world. Salt preserves (preserves the good), and it restrains (as in restrains decay)--it restrains the evil from going further, from advancing as far as it would otherwise. The believers collectively shine as a bright light in a darkened world. Note that men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
    When the restraining influence of the believers is removed via the rapture, then the Antichrist shall be revealed. Right now the Holy Spirit dwells in every believer and is a restraining influence for the advance of evil in each nation where believers are present.
    It is God that seals them. As I said, God, the Holy Spirit, is omnipresent. This is a given.
    Second, the seal is a visible seal:
    [FONT=&quot]Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[/FONT]
    --It is a mark of ownership. God is telling all to leave his elect alone.
    Hal Lindsey was more of a sensationalist, a novelist, than a scholar. Only a fool would use his book as a point of reference. Really, don't you have any scholarly works to quote from.
    I don't interpret the Bible according to google. :rolleyes:
    The majority is not always right, in fact rarely.
    Your sources are hardly worth the trouble looking up.

    Use the Bible. Where does it say that the 144,000 are evangelists? Give me chapter and verse. They were sealed in order to have the protection of God. It specifically says: "Hurt not..." That is not the appeal of an evangelist.

    The point in chapter seven is that God still has a remnant, Israel, for himself. They are sealed, protected by Him. And He will come for them near the end of the Tribulation. He will keep them during this time.
    MacArthur got it mostly right. But nothing is said about them being evangelists. That is reading into the scripture that which is not there.
     
    #10 DHK, Dec 14, 2014
  11. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    No doubt the Holy Spirit is God.

    Was He everywhere omnipresent when Christ said:

    Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.

    Why would Christ have to send for someone who is already present?

    According to your Futurist doctrines I thought the Tribulation occurs midway through the 70th week of Daniel when the Antichrist declares himself God.

    As a Pre-Tribber would not the Rapture occur 3 ½ years before the Tribulation?

    The 20th century was the most destructive in the history of the world.

    The modern professing Christian Church is the happy hunting ground for tares and their children.

    Restraining influence? Wake up, man.

    When the most famous and well respected names in modern Evangelical Christianity call the Pope a born-again brother in Christ it’s a sign the favor of the Lord is being withdrawn and judgment is on its way.

    FYI, the Holy Spirit indwells believers to restrain THEIR SIN.

    Believers don’t restrain the evil in the world, they attract the evil ones in the world who would kill or destroy their witness.

    The world hates Christians as they hated Christ.

    A literal visible seal on the forehead…..? LOL

    I can’t wait to hear your explanation as to what the Mark of the Beast will be. A bar code, perhaps?

    Scholarly dispensationalists?

    Antonyms similar to born-again Popes. :laugh:

    I’m curious. Can you cite a few of your Futurist ‘scholars’ who believe the Holy Spirit is not the Restrainer in 2 Thess. 2?

    Did you realize that in the original Greek text the 144,000 sealed were the few chosen out of a much larger group?

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev7.pdf

    This is the doctrine of Election. A doctrine which you despise.

    Truth be told the Futurist ‘everyman’ could care less what you and your so-called ‘scholars’ believe. They are all in agreement and consider you to be in error.

    Again, I would like proof that your ‘scholars’ do not believe the 144,000 to be evangelists.
     
    #11 Protestant, Dec 14, 2014
  12. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    I have noted that Scripture for decades.

    I must ask, how was it that you turned from loving darkness to loving the light?

    I assume you were once a worker of evil deeds.

    Perhaps your evil deeds were not as bad as others and, as a result, you were less bound by iniquity, thus making it possible for you to break your bonds while others, with stronger bonds, find it impossible, remaining in darkness.
     
    #12 Protestant, Dec 15, 2014
  13. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Using your hypothesis as the basis of prophetic truth, I could not help but detect a few inconsistencies with what Scripture teaches.

    (1) If the Holy Spirit-filled Church of believers is the Restrainer, why would Paul call the Church ‘he’ when the Church is a ‘she,’ a feminine noun consistent with the teaching that the Church is the Bride of Christ?

    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.


    (2) If the Holy Spirit-filled Church of believers is the Restrainer, why would Paul not plainly state as much? He uses the noun, ‘church,’ in chapter 1 verse 1:

    Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:


    (3) If the Holy Spirit-filled Church of believers is the Restrainer which Paul had previously taught there would be no need for the Thessalonians to be concerned that the Man of Sin was already revealed.

    They were obviously still present on Earth, not having been raptured, therefore the Man of Sin was still presently being restrained and could not be revealed.

    Was there not one believer in that church who was not cognizant of that simple fact?

    Or did they all have Alzheimer's?
     
    #13 Protestant, Dec 15, 2014
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Bible teaches that the Body of Christ, his true church, shall get raptured roght before the Great tribulation kickes off, as the holy spirit has been restaring in and thru His Body here upon the earth..

    While we depart to be with Christ, the Spirit still remaians here upon the earth, iys just that he is functioning in a different aspect, but still here to save/seal and empower bold witnesses for the name of jesus christ!
     
    #14 Yeshua1, Dec 15, 2014
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Spirit has always been everywhere, but he did not function int he same role that he has now, as jesus had to die and be raised up, THEN He was able to come on Pentacost, as THAT was when God officially inaugurated His New Covenant upon the earth, as in the Body of the Church of Christ.

    You err because you do not read the scriptures in a literall fashion!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, Dec 15, 2014
  16. Getting it Right

    Getting it Right Member
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    To Protestant

    Your posts are egotistical (only self-serving), having no basis in Spiritual interpretation and application of Scripture, as provided by the Holy Spirit, and therefore absent of the Love of God. He isn't looking over your shoulder, dictating your posts and your responses to others.

    Calm down, trash your notes, and pray about it. Or should I say, Pray, calm down, then trash your notes?

    :godisgood:
     
    #16 Getting it Right, Dec 15, 2014
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Seriously, if you can't answer this question then ask it again in another post where it can be explained more fully. It is important.
    Are you saved? Does the Holy Spirit abide in you; dwell within you?
    If He does, then you would have never asked this question. You would automatically know the answer.
    No, The Tribulation IS the Seventieth Week.
    That is mid-trib.
    Pre-trib is before The Tribulation, before the seven year period begins.
    Have you read Dave Hunt's book: "Forewarning" You should.
    [FONT=&quot]Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.[/FONT]

    (ESV) And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.
    --What would one hailstone do to your car, or even your house, not to mention you, if it weighed 100 pounds? Talk about destruction!! That is destruction! You ain't seen nothin' yet!!
    If it is truly Christian it has no tares. :)
    You teach the traditions of men instead of the doctrine of God. Pity!
    It doesn't matter what other men say or teach. What matters is what you say and teach. Take your focus of others and put it on yourself. What are you doing for the Lord. What responsibility have you taken upon yourself that others might hear the gospel and be saved?
    If believers are carrying out the Great Commission then that hatred is being turned into divine love. Is that the case with you? I have seen it happen many times. In that way evil is not only restrained, but stopped. But as that influence grows it is restrained. The influence of evangelical churches restrain the advance of evil in this world.
    So they did and continue to do. But that doesn't stop Christianity from growing and advancing. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
    That is what the Bible says. It is a sign of ownership; a sign of protection.
    I am not going to speculate.
    Yes, but because of your disdain and mockery for them I will let you do your own research.
    It is the influence of the Holy Spirit as He resides in each believer who then, as the bride of Christ, will be raptured before the Tribulation begins. The Holy Spirit works through people. And He works through His Word. Those are the two mediums that God has chosen. He does not work through a vacuum.
    Yes, but they will be the first fruits of the redeemed. Compare scripture with scripture. At this point they are sealed--protected, but not yet redeemed.
    [FONT=&quot]Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.[/FONT]
    I don't despise it. It is taught in the Bible. It is also misused and abused.
    Again, more error from you.
    Here is one of your basic errors. You are like another poster on this board with whom I have debated the subject of dispensationalism. His only defense is that I am a follower of Darby which he repeatedly brings up over and over again. I have never read Darby. There are a variety of dispensationalists and they don't all believe the same thing. We have soul liberty that within a certain framework to believe differently. Some people don't understand that concept.

    It would be like me using your acronym, Protestant. The most vocal Protestant IMO, was Luther. Therefore, you must be a follower of the teachings of Luther and everything Luther believed is what you believe because, after all, you are "Protestant."
    That is the logic of some here. And it is your logic that I must believe the 144,000 are evangelists just because some of the others futurists do. There is soul liberty here. Search the Scriptures. Where does it say they become evangelists? It doesn't.
    In fact, in 14:3,4 they are the firstfruits of those that are redeemed, meaning they are the first ones in the Tribulation that are saved. That works against that theory. There are no unsaved evangelists. :rolleyes:
     
    #17 DHK, Dec 15, 2014
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Where is the whole church of NT gone, while 144K is on the Mount Zion?

    Why is the whole NT church not mentioned while 144K is described and praised?

    Don't be deceived by Pre-trib theory developped by Darby, Margaret, Irving, Lacunza ( Catholic Jesuit)

    Read Re 13, which tells you that the saints who exist before the Rise of Beast continue to exist to fight the Beast and fail in the battle with Beast,
    then the Beast rule over the saints imposing 666. Read thru 13:5-10, then the whole chapter 13:1-18.


    Eliyahu
     
    #18 Eliyahu, Dec 17, 2014
  19. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Have those following this thread noticed that DHK has not responded to these 3 points?

    And have those following this thread noticed that DHK has not come forth with any corroborating so-called 'scholars' (along with referenced citations) who deny that the Holy Spirit is the 'Restrainer?'

    Neither has he come forth with documentation proving that these ‘scholars’ do not believe the 144,000 to be evangelists.

    Curious is it not?
     
    #19 Protestant, Dec 17, 2014
  20. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    I do hope DHK will attempt to respond to this obvious and biblical question.
     
    #20 Protestant, Dec 17, 2014
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