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Featured Saving Faith: God’s Gift to Sinners or Sinners’ Gift to God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Feb 16, 2015.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Aw gee Walley, I didn't tear it out, I just scribbled it out with an ink pen.

    Let me ask you a question brother. Did God hate you before you were born again while you were living in iniquity?
     
    #61 steaver, Feb 22, 2015
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Calvinism is man-made. As its representative you can take up your argument with God. One of the problems Calvinists always seem to have a problem with is Cornelius.

    Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
    Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
    --Not only did he pray to the Lord God Jehovah, but as you read on, God answered his prayer, and sent to him Peter. Cornelius was not yet saved for Peter had not yet come with the gospel.
    This unregenerated unsaved man did good and his prayers were heard by God.
    The only reason you won't believe this is because your pre-conceived ideology will prevent you from doing so.
     
    #62 DHK, Feb 22, 2015
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs::applause: You give a nice explanation here that any believer will see.A person would have to lack spiritual understanding to go against this: thumbs:

    Sometimes we speak with individuals who try to explain away the supernatural element and come up with a flawed, man centered, natural explanation of that which is to be spiritually discerned.

    I hope that does not happen here:wavey:
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Feb 22, 2015
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    DHK

    Protestant made such a solid post....and then you posted this:laugh:


    :laugh: the robot caricature

    :eek: except for everytime God saves a sinner!
    :laugh: Saving faith is the gift of God we have all received and you tell us it was not from God??????
     
    #64 Iconoclast, Feb 22, 2015
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    DHK is a diva....an opera diva....me me me me me meeeeee!!!
     
    #65 convicted1, Feb 22, 2015
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    He requested that I answer it.
    I didn't find that it was such a solid post.
    There are many quotes from different Calvinists that God has foreordained everything--i.e., every thought, word and deed. If that be true, then what I said is not a simple caricature. It is the truth.
    The Calvinist doesn't believe God saves sinners. They believe God saves saints, contrary to Biblical teaching. They believe he must be regenerated first. Thus the regenerated person is given the faith to believe and be saved. This is what you believe, but it is not Biblical. Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that faith is a gift given to the unregenerate.
    Jesus said: "thy faith has made you whole," not the faith of God has made you whole." Such a concept is foreign to the Bible.
    Faith is not the gift of God, and you have never demonstrated it from the Bible. Why keep parroting things you cannot prove?
    Dozens of times in the NT does Jesus refer to "thy faith," "your faith", "his faith," "their faith," etc. But he never refers to his own faith saving or healing anyone. Why is that?

    Even in the OT God always made an appeal to human reason.
    "Come now and let us reason together saith the Lord..." (Isa.1:18)
    The appeal is always to the mind.
    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
    Not, believe with the faith of Christ...
     
    #66 DHK, Feb 22, 2015
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    That is an all-together false allegation. Please say only the truth DHK. It will save you a lot of grief.
    You have made it very clear in the past decade or so that you have not received faith from God.

    But, praise God I have. And a lot of others can testify that they have. It certainly was not of ourselves. It was His gift to us. We didn't originate faith. God is both the Author and Finisher of our faith.

    Unlike you, we don't go around claiming that God gave us free will. He gave us the gift of faith.
     
    #67 Rippon, Feb 22, 2015
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is not a false allegation. However, if you want me to be more precise in my terminology I will.
    Jesus said: "I have come to seek and save that which is lost."
    The Calvinist says: Christ came to save the regenerated.
    I have made it clear in the past that faith is a fruit of the Spirit, and thus all believers ought to be demonstrating it as they "walk by faith."
    I have also made it clear that faith is not a gift given by God to the unregenerate and you have never given me any scripture to the contrary.
    So you can stop with the personal attacks.
    And there are a whole lot of United Pentecostals that will say they were saved because they spoke in tongues, but praise God our salvation does not rest in our experience and that which we subjectively testify, but rather in the authority of the Word of God. You still avoid God's Word when it comes to demonstrating that faith is a gift given to the unregenerate. Odd that you would use subjective experience to try and demonstrate your point.
    It is not I that claim it. It is the Word of God, and I have given plenty of Scripture that no one has attempted to refute. Now, why is that?
     
    #68 DHK, Feb 22, 2015
  9. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

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    Amen. Men were evil on the OT and continue to be evil in the NT. The inherent evil nature of man’s heart reached its apex in the murder of innocent Jesus.

    Both OT and NT teach the need for a new heart which only God can give.

    And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. (Deut. 30:6)

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3 ESV)

    The new birth results in our being a new creation.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.

    We are the workmanship of God.

    For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

    ‘Prepared beforehand’ is another way of saying, ‘predestined before the foundation of the world.’

    God the Father has predestined all those spiritual gifts necessary for us to carry out the good work to which we have been called in Christ Jesus.

    We Christians, as well as the spiritual gifts given us, are His workmanship, His creation.

    Faith must be one of those spiritual gifts because faith must be spiritual in nature to be saving faith.

    Therefore, faith must be given by the Spirit.

    Sinful man by nature is not spiritual. He is carnal with a wicked heart….’desperately wicked.’

    Both Jesus and the Scriptures do not minimize the wickedness of men’s hearts.

    For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

    Before I answer your extensive post (for which I thank you for being quite detailed) we must come to an understanding of the fundamental truths regarding the unregenerate human heart.

    Without a correct understanding of the analogies cited above it will be futile to answer your objections based on other Scriptures.

    Therefore, I must ask:

    1. Do you agree that all unregenerate men are sinful and therefore evil in the sight of the Lord?

    2. Do you agree that the Lord is comparing our inherent sin nature to corrupt trees which cannot bring forth good fruit?

    3. If yes, then do you agree it is impossible for an evil heart to bring forth that which is good in the sight of the Lord?

    4. If yes, then do you agree that a spiritual saving faith in Christ is that which is good in the sight of the Lord?

    5. If yes, then please explain how it is possible for unregenerate sinful carnal man to bring forth the good fruit of spiritual saving faith in Christ since Jesus clearly teaches the impossibility that such a miracle can be performed by man.

    Jesus teaches this common sense truth:

    For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

    The fruit of unregenerate men is inherently corrupt.

    Nothing spiritually good comes from a sinful wicked heart.

    Therefore, like man who will not gather figs from thorns, God does not seek to gather fruit of any worth which comes from the tree of an unrepentant, unregenerate sinner.

    That would include the rotten fruit of carnal faith which evil unregenerate men would attempt to give Him. Amen?

    I look forward to your reply when time allows.
     
    #69 Protestant, Feb 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2015
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I would like to see a Calvinist "reason" with these truths you present concerning just who's faith it is God speaks of in these scriptures.

    And this....

     
    #70 steaver, Feb 22, 2015
  11. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Yes. The "you" are Christians. How many times do I have to keep repeating, the wrath of God abides on ALL unbelievers, before I was born again I was an unbeliever. Use the little gray cells.

    1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
     
    #71 Robert William, Feb 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 22, 2015
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    That's interesting. So even though God hated Esau before he was ever born, God could still decide to love Esau later in his life.
     
    #72 steaver, Feb 22, 2015
  13. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    YHWH in His Sovereignty loves and hates whoever He wants.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxZKJSNVgqM
     
    #73 Robert William, Feb 22, 2015
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    So even though God hated Esau before he was ever born, God could still decide to love Esau later in his life.
     
    #74 steaver, Feb 22, 2015
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Just trying to sort this out. Another Cal poster said one doesn't become a sheep, one is a sheep but just lost until found. So does God hate His sheep before He then loves them when He finds them?
     
    #75 steaver, Feb 22, 2015
  16. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Are they unbelievers? :BangHead:
     
    #76 Robert William, Feb 22, 2015
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    So God hates His sheep and then after He regenerates them He loves them....
     
    #77 steaver, Feb 22, 2015
  18. Robert William

    Robert William Member
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    Right, nobody deserves the love of God even after they are saved, He chooses to love the sheep because He is looking through Christ.
     
    #78 Robert William, Feb 22, 2015
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    They don't Steaver. They avoid them and go straight to Total Inability. That is their MO.
     
    #79 DHK, Feb 22, 2015
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    in the latest episode of leave it to stever ,stever discusses important issues such as instead of discussing tulip stever decides to discuss the Daisy he loves me he loves me not he loves me he loves me not.

    in this episode stever goes back & forth so many times that God loves or hates Esau , or can you can love and hate at the same time he confuses himself and new member Robert William...causing the head banging emoticon.....after only 25 posts on BB....
     
    #80 Iconoclast, Feb 22, 2015
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