Why we must be born again !

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by tyndale1946....Nicodemus was born again after his encounter with Jesus Christ

??? How do you know that brother? Something drew Nicodemus to the light that night. What was it?

One of the thieves who was crucified with Jesus was born again at the cross...

??? How do you know that brother? A redeemed, 'born from above' person is perfectly capable of thievery or lying or killing or adultery, etc. The fact is we're all capable of doing everything we're told NOT to do in the book!

 

[savedbymercy]

kyredneck

You all realize that's it's literally 'born from above', right?

Yes I knew that, so did you understand the points made in the OP ? Please explain them back to me !

 

[kyredneck]

I disagree with your application of Ezek 37; the 'regeneration' it speaks of is 'corporate', not individual:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

 

[savedbymercy]

I disagree with your application of Ezek 37; the 'regeneration' it speaks of is 'corporate', not individual:

14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old. Acts 15

So thats it huh ? Thats your way of doing what I asked ?

 

[tyndale1946]

??? How do you know that brother? Something drew Nicodemus to the light that night. What was it?

??? How do you know that brother? A redeemed, 'born from above' person is perfectly capable of thievery or lying or killing or adultery, etc. The fact is we're all capable of doing everything we're told NOT to do in the book!

I agree... "Let God be true and every man a liar!"


Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This is the only a surety anyone has!... Brother Glen

 

[Van]

Why must we be born anew? Good question.

Here is SBM's answer: "Thus the necessity of being Born Again in order to become Believers and followers of Jesus Christ, because of the elects dead spiritual state by nature.

This is yet another repeat of a much refuted argument by defintion. Calvinist's say that if you are spiritually dead in your sins, you have no ability to seek God and trust in Christ, just as a physically dead man has no ability to do anything.

But being spiritually dead refers to being separated from God. If you are united with God, you are alive, if you are separated from God by your unholiness, you are spiritually dead.

Matthew 23:13 has spiritually dead men seeking God effectively, for they were actually "entering heaven." Now they did not actually enter heaven, i.e. reach their destination, but that is not the point. The point is they were seeking God, so Calvinism's definition of being spiritually dead is mistaken.

So if not being "in Christ" is being separated from God, and therefore spiritually dead, then to be placed spiritually in Christ is being made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5.

So a spiritually dead person is (1) separated from God, (2) unregenerated, having not been born anew, and (3) not indwelt and thus unable to understand spiritual meat.

When a person is spiritually born anew, that gives them the right to become physical children of God redeemed in glorified bodies at Christ's second coming. Thus when we are born anew spiritually, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, our Spirit of Adoption, as God's pledge for our redemption.

Now does scripture say first we believe, then are put spiritually in Christ, or first we are put spiritually in Christ and then we believe? The former, not the latter.

 

[robustheologian]

Some people just won’t and can't learn. (now that's what I call total inability :laugh

The verse Matt. 23:13 is the only verse being held to refute total depravity. Matthew 23:13 as a basis for men seeking God has already been refuted.

Want to know what verses supporting total depravity have not been refuted??

Romans 3:9-12 — What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Jeremiah 13:23 — Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard his spots?
Then also you can do good
who are accustomed to do evil.

Romans 8:7 — For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Genesis 8:21 — And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, the Lord said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

Titus 1:15-16 — To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

John 3:20 — For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

1 Corinthians 2:14 — The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 — And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

John 6:44 — No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 — And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Philippians 2:13 — for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

John 6:63 — It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

John 3:6 — That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jonah 2:9 — But I with the voice of thanksgiving
will sacrifice to you;
what I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation belongs to the Lord!”

James 1:18 — Of His own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

 

[robustheologian]

Like I've said before, in Matthew 23:13 Jesus is pronouncing judgment on the scribes and Pharsisees because instead of pointing people in the direction of God, they abused their office to the point that they were turning people off from God. The Calvinist may even say that God is hardening the hearts of those people

There’s nothing in the text suggesting those who the Pharisees were pushing away were not already destined for hell and not part of the elect. Therefore, this pushing away could very well have been God’s righteous and divine judgment.

This scripture shows that the way of the Pharisees were pushing these people further into the sin and condemnation that they were already in. The Pharisees were giving people a reason to stay out the Kingdom of Heaven—in the same way people’s hearts, “logic”, experiences, and etc. keep them from coming to Christ.

Here’s a simple illustration. It is like locking the doors of a movie theater (shutting the door of the Kingdom of Heaven) to one who doesn’t go to the movies, nor desires to (no one seeks God). By it being locked up, if that one would want to see a movie (though we have established they do not desire to and will not) they would not be able to enter.

Irresistible grace overcomes all resistance. What makes it irresistible is that it overcomes ALL and ANY resistance to salvation. It overcomes the heart and mind’s resistance but it also overcomes external resistance like bad church experiences, bad preaching, and even bad people (such as the scribes and Pharisess).

From the Reformed/Calvinist view, it is too easy to see that those they kept from heaven were obviously not destined for salvation to began with. If they were, irresistible grace would have overcome even that resistance.

Our flesh (like the scribes and Pharisess) does not “allow those of us who would enter to go in” to salvation but for we who are saved, the Spirit (irresistible grace) overcame that resistance.

Bottom line: Something that is able to be resisted is not irresistible…just that simple. Therefore, Matthew 23:13 can not refute irresistible grace because irresistible grace was not present in that scenario. A type of grace may have been present (as it usually is in the case of common grace, the gospel, preachers, etc.), but the mere fact that it was resisted or prevented proves that it was not the irresistible (or effectual) kind.

The above scriptures show that if it weren’t for the irresistible grace of the Spirit, the gospel and the salvation that comes from the gospel would always be resisted.

To be regenerated is to be born of the Spirit (irresistible grace). One's entrance into the kingdom of God is salvation (entrance into the kingdom of God = salvation). While regeneration is the means to that salvation it is not salvation by itself.

It's like simple filling-in of the blanks.
unless one is born of water and _________, he cannot _______.

So if:
entrance into the kingdom of God = salvation
AND
being born of the Spirit = regeneration
THEN
when John 3:5 says "unless one is born of water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" it is saying:
"unless one is born of water and regenerated, he cannot be saved.

 

[kyredneck]

So thats it huh ? Thats your way of doing what I asked ?

Lol, OK, I also disagree with your application of Eph 2:1,5. I believe Paul meant it as corporately and not individually, like in this sense here:

12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; Col 1

 

[Van]

LOL, Matthew 23:13 is not the only verse to refute Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability. Matthew 13:1-23 also teaches some unregenerate people seek God and receive the gospel with joy.

On the other hand, there are no verses contextually considered that support Total Spiritual Inability. Certainly not 1 Cor. 2:14, or Romans 3:11.

Does Romans 8:7 teach unregenerates are unable to set their minds on godly, spiritual things? Nope.

Does anyone deny we are conceived in iniquity, separated from God and with a corrupt nature? Nope. Or that we have by nature a heart whose every intention is evil? Nope. But these truths do not teach Matthew 23:13 should be nullified. Taken together fallen men of flesh are disposed to ungodliness, but some are able some of the time to seek God and trust in Christ.

And again, the issue is not whether these men were going to be saved, the issue is they were seeking God effective, thus total spiritual inability is a mistaken view. No need to argue non germane subjects.

Just for grins, lets consider on more verse, where Paul tells us the Law acts as a tutor to lead us to Christ. If we have not yet come to Christ, we are not saved, born anew, regenerated or made alive. But in our fallen state at least some can be lead to Christ through the Law. Just one more example of where Total Spiritual Inability is shown to be unbiblical.

 

[savedbymercy]

Lol, OK, I also disagree with your application of Eph 2:1,5. I believe Paul meant it as corporately and not individually, like in this sense here:

12 giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light;
13 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; Col 1

Where did I ask you to tell me what you disagree with ?

 

[kyredneck]

There's no need to ask for disagreement on a debate forum.

 

[robustheologian]

Just for grins, lets consider on more verse, where Paul tells us the Law acts as a tutor to lead us to Christ. If we have not yet come to Christ, we are not saved, born anew, regenerated or made alive. But in our fallen state at least some can be lead to Christ through the Law. Just one more example of where Total Spiritual Inability is shown to be unbiblical.

Don't grin too much because you're wrong. Gal. 3:24 actually says "So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith." "Lead/bring us to" is nowhere to be found in the Greek—those are supplied words. The Greek word "eis" in Gal. 3:24 means "up to" or "until" like in the above rendering. So that verse says nothing about us being lead to Christ by the Law. If the Law was leading people to Christ there would still be a need for the law to be our guardian but it can't—which is why there is no need for the Law to be our guardian (v. 25) I can't necessarily charge you with being unbiblical (you went with the KJV rendering) but your explanation does show a lack of exegetical ability on your part concerning the Greek of this passage.

 

[savedbymercy]

There's no need to ask for disagreement on a debate forum.

Who said it was need ? You are just being evasive like everyone else !

 

[kyredneck]

.... so did you understand the points made in the OP ? Please explain them back to me !

You remind me of a couple school teachers I had growing up...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You remind me of a couple school teachers I had growing up...

....and you hated those school teachers, right:smilewinkgrin:

 

[kyredneck]

...nah, lookin' back on it I was pretty hard-headed then...(in fact, I thought my name was 'hard headed heathen' up until about six)

 

[Van]

I see RT seems to deny the meaning of the Greek word, translated "guardian" in his version of Galatians 3:24-25. Here is how the NASB renders the verse: Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

So if we remove the added words supplied by the translators, which I should not have used as scripture, we have the Law has become our tutor to Christ.... Same meaning!!

Now a tutor is someone who leads, guides, teaches someone something!!
So once again, those that advocate the mistaken Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, must dodge the fact that some fallen people were guided, lead, and taught of their need of the Messiah by the Law.

When Jesus choose His first Apostles, they were looking for the Messiah!!

 

[robustheologian]

I see RT seems to deny the meaning of the Greek word, translated "guardian" in his version of Galatians 3:24-25. Here is how the NASB renders the verse: Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

So if we remove the added words supplied by the translators, which I should not have used as scripture, we have the Law has become our tutor to Christ.... Same meaning!!

Now a tutor is someone who leads, guides, teaches someone something!!
So once again, those that advocate the mistaken Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, must dodge the fact that some fallen people were guided, lead, and taught of their need of the Messiah by the Law.

When Jesus choose His first Apostles, they were looking for the Messiah!!

If you were to look up παιδαγωγός (transliterated "paidagōgos" in English) in the BDAG you would know that it means "supervisor" or "chaperone". The definition of παιδαγωγός is far from "tutor", "leader", or "guide" which is why the modern translations (like ESV, HCSB, NET, LEB, NIV, etc.) almost all use "guardian".

You keep coming up with the wrong interpretation of Gal. 3:24 so I'll just tell you what it means. That verse is saying we were under (and I hate to use this term) the dispensation or better yet custody of the Law and now that Christ has come we no longer need it to supervise us. If the Law teaches us anything it is that we are sinners (as Paul said in Romans 3:20 and 7:7). But to erroneously claim that the Law guides, leads, or tutors (and whatever misuse of the word παιδαγωγός) us to the Messiah is DEAD WRONG. If that was the case, the scribes, Pharisees, and Israel at large would have already come to Christ but we know that is not the case.

Van, this is some pretty bad exegesis. I hope everyone else goes through this thread to see how NOT to interpret a text based on your posts. What makes this even worse is that you accuse people of dodging when you're the one actually dodging what the Bible says...especially on Galatians 3:24. You made your whole case on supplied words (words not in the original text) then you change to basing your whole case off of an inaccurate definition of παιδαγωγός. :tonofbricks:

I'm all for a good debate on Scripture but do us both a favor by doing your homework and finding out what the Scripture actually says. :laugh: I'll be here waiting. :wavey:

 

[tyndale1946]

...nah, lookin' back on it I was pretty hard-headed then...(in fact, I thought my name was 'hard headed heathen' up until about six)

Then the Lord got a hold of you... Took you to his Old School... An now you are Hardshelled... Brother Glen:godisgood: