You can get a lot of nonsense from bad exegesis.
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The Context of the Parenthesis Church
- Thread starter revmwc
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You can get a lot of nonsense from bad exegesis.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
On this verse Barnes says:
When the curse is fully lifted, not only by the death of Christ, but also at his Coming, the curse on the earth will also be lifted.
Christ became a curse. The price was paid. It was paid to the Father.
DHK, that does not address the claim that there is still further work to be done to Redeem the Earth.
That is revmwc claim, and so far he has refused to answer for it.
I'm not asking about man being redeemed as you seem to think, I'm asking about the claim that the earth STILL needs to be redeemed.
Why is everyone avoiding answering the question? Or I guess more specifically what is revmwc avoiding answering questions about his claim?
That is revmwc claim, and so far he has refused to answer for it.
I'm not asking about man being redeemed as you seem to think, I'm asking about the claim that the earth STILL needs to be redeemed.
Why is everyone avoiding answering the question? Or I guess more specifically what is revmwc avoiding answering questions about his claim?
It has been answered. The problem is that the imagery of a payment being given as would occur in a normal transaction, like someone has something and they are paid to get it back.
The "payment" is the wage of sin being exacted.
Here is an example:
Revelation 18:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Another would be...
Revelation 14:14-19
King James Version (KJV)
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
At the heart of the redemption of the earth is the removal of that which offends and the restoration of earth to a condition closer to the original intention of God for man.
Satan will be paid his due wage, Babylon will receive her due wage, the unbelieving of that day will receive their due wage.
But the imagery that God is "paying someone off" is foreign to the redemption that will take place at that time. I think that is what has some confused.
And speaking of unanswered questions, have you answered mine in any of the threads yet?
Who populates the Millennial Kingdom?
God bless.
More importantlier, lol, why are you refusing to address the answers that have been supplied?
Paul makes it clear that the creation is awaiting redemption:
Romans 8:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
And we can see that even we await the finality of our redemption which will only be complete, physically, when we are raptured.
And this also points to the fallacy of the a-mil view which does not allow for this creation being redeemed, as in the eternal state, this creation passes away.
God bless.
In answer to your question, saved people that survive the tribulation
Naaaa....I work for a living so I don't have the time. However what Ive seen from your type just aggravates me. You do not exegete scripture properly, Id suggest you find a church that can help you with it....then perhaps. For now however, I will just put you on ignore.
Chao....oh & God Bless
In answer to your question, saved people that survive the tribulation
Glorified or no?
God bless.
No
Although I will be honest my views are currently in a state of flux. 10 years ago I had a very dogmatic view about eschatology but the more I have studied the Bible the less dogmatic I became on those views. These discussions the last few weeks or so may have me changing my mind about a lot if things
I work for a living as well, though having my own company has it's perks, sometimes.
And an abscessed tooth is a good reason to take a day off.
That's my excuse, anyway.
Believe me, I understand.
People hate it when their doctrine is shown to be a lot of fluff.
Poorly thrown together passages to concoct doctrine that stands in conflict with the rest of Scripture. Refusal to acknowledge the Whole Counsel of God's Word. Adding and removing from the Word of God.
If I had to try to defend your doctrine...I would get aggravated too.
And people that won't roll over and bow to someone because they have more posts and have been on the Forum longer. Man, can't stand those people either.
You are welcome to show where I have failed in my exegesis or improperly expounded upon, my friend.
But we both know you won't. So let's not kid ourselves. You would make my day if for once you actually addressed the issues that are in fact important to a proper understanding of the Word of God.
I mean that.
You know, there is one out west I would love to attend, where Expository Preaching is the standard, but since I am not out west, and I actually have grown to love a lot of the people I fellowship with, as well as my Pastor, though I disagree with him about a few things...guess I'll just assume that God has placed me there for a reason.
But in the meantime, I will stick with the approach that I have come to understand as a proper method, and just see how it goes.
I guess that is probably best.
Just keep in mind I am not bound by this, and maintain liberty to comment on your views.
Bon voy ajjee, as my good friend Bugs would say.
God bless.
Let's see 69 weeks if it equals weeks then that would place Christ return around the time of Ezra and Nehemiah if that be so then who was the Messiah?
What we do know is that 69 x 7 for a seven year period equals 483. Per the best calculations we can find it was 483 years from the going forth of the proclamation to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah would come and be cut off, was exactly the time Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey, and a week later He was cut off.
That fits God plan. Then there would according to Daniel be a span of time before the Tribulation would come and 1/2 way into it the abomination that maketh desolate would be set up. Which has yet to occur the thing is Revelation shows that period from chapter 7-19. I believe god will spare the church and rapture her out, you on the other want to go through the tribulation by denying it will occur.
Daniel said it will, Revelation says it will fortunately for you God will snatch you out unwilling and all.
How many answers do you want for this. I answered OR and then you in post 139 DHK answered, post 147 I answered, Post 167 I answered,
Here is 167,
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post
So it is the earth that is punished by the Great Tribulation to make propitiation for the earth's sin. And just how did the earth sin?
"Wrong it is unregenerate men who pay the price in the Great Tribulation in order that the curse is removed. The Tribulation begins with all unregenerate humans. A multitude will be saved by the witness of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses as well as the 2 witness in the last half of the Tribulation. We see those who are beheaded for Christ during the O.T. and N.T. periods in Revelation 6:9-11 asking when those who took their blood will be judged and avenged,
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
They must wait this little season that is the 7years of the Tribulation until all the Tribulation Saints who will be martyred have be fulfilled.
We see them avenged in Revelation 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."
God seals the 144,000 so that they will not died during this time, He raises up the two witnesses and those in the Tribulation have the witness of the church prior to her removal that will lead people to Salvation.
God knows exactly how many and who will trust Christ in this dispensation of Grace and in the Tribulation. Just as He knew who would trust Christ in the O.T. and those born during the Kingdom age. Since God foreknew who would be saved He predestinated them to be adopted.
The Kingdom comes to a restored earth with all creation back to Pre-Fall state. The Tribulation accomplishes the Redwmption or Restoration of the Earth. The terms of Redemption in the seven sealed book being opened by the Kinsman redeemer and God the Father is satisfied with the meeting (payment) of the terms of Redemption of the Lost Possession.
Prior to the Kingdom and at Christ second coming unbelievers are slain as seen in Revelation 19:21 "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
We see where they are for the 1000 year reign, Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." They were in hell until the 1000 years is over.
During the Kingdom we see this fulfilled:
Isaiah 11:1-10,
1 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Who is the stem of Jesse none other than the Lord Jesus Christ.He will be on the throne in Jerusalem, all creation is restored and the Tribulation was the payment of the redemption price, just as the Kinsman redeemer laws of Israel required payment. Just as God required payment for our sins so too must the terms of redemption for the possession be met. Then the Kingdom as Described by Isaiah comes into fruition. With Christ reigning as the root or stem of Jesse.
Highlighted in red is the answer to that question.
Bottom line the same one who required a blood sacrifice for our sins and sent His Son to make the payment for our sins, is the same one who requires that His wrath be poured out upon the people of the Tribulation and the earth to meet the price of redemption. Christ met the price for the sins of the whole world, God's wrath poured out in the Tribulation will meet His requirement for the redemption price of the Earth. So who gets paid, God the Father was satisfied with the payment of the Blood of His son for our sins. So too will He be satisfied with the payment of judgment upon all the world and all of mankind in the Tribulation.
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No
Although I will be honest my views are currently in a state of flux. 10 years ago I had a very dogmatic view about eschatology but the more I have studied the Bible the less dogmatic I became on those views. These discussions the last few weeks or so may have me changing my mind about a lot if things
And that is why it is good for us to understand why our antagonists believe what they do.
I learned early on that sometimes those we consider nitwits have a logical reason for their beliefs.
Okay, I agree, those who populate the Kingdom will be living, physical believers who survive the Tribulation. The only Resurrection we see at Christ's Return is the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, presumed so because they refused to worship the Beast, who is specific to that time.
Now if we acknowledge that the tribulation Martyrs are raised, and the rest of the dead are not raised, and the living believers are not glorified, that would force a conclusion that the Rapture would have to take place after the Kingdom, right?
Moreover, we create a conflict in that Paul teaches that the Rapture includes both living and dead believers, not just the dead.
We could say "Well this is the Rapture, it just doesn't mention the living believers," but...it does, doesn't it. That is precisely what Matthew 24 and 25 are speaking about.
Those taken and those left show that unbelievers perish, and believers live to enter into the Kingdom.
There is no time after the Tribulation starts where the Rapture can be seen or occur which satisfies Paul's teaching that every existing believer is glorified, first the dead, then those who remain. The entire Church.
To make the First Resurrection the Rapture, the single point I would ask you to consider is this: that leaves no physical believers to populate the Kingdom. That means that we have a conflict created in chapter 20 because we see that there are unbelievers at the end of the thousand years...
Revelation 20:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This is a conflict that only the Pre-Trib Rapture reconciles.
Progressive Dispensationalists teach a localized Tribulation which occurs in the Middle-East. That is how they try to reconcile it (they are by and large Post-Trib). The problem with that is that is not what Prophecy teaches, though I admit it is a great point of discussion.
For example:
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Just think about it.
God bless.
So your saying that the earth and all the people on the earth during the tribulation have to pay the price to be redeemed? That's what it looks like you are saying, which would mean that the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ did not accomplish all of redemption and that is a huge problem.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
There was no answer in either of the abive posts!
And just how does punishing mankind redeem the earth! Jesus Christ died to redeem the Elect. Are you claiming that the death of millions of sinful mankind will redeem or cover the sins of the earth? Just where did you hear that, from the Word of Faith people such as Kenneth Copeland. Actually the above answers nothing!
No I am saying God's judgment redeems the earth not the people.
That still means Christ's death, burial and resurrection was not sufficient and that like I said is a problem.
Where do you get that their deaths redeem the earth? God's wrath poured out on the earth produces the reclamation of the earth.
Who is Kenneth Copeland??????????????
Copyrighted material below used with permission
"The redemption of land which had been lost by its owner Leviticus 25:23-25. The method of redemption went like this, when a man had fallen into debt and lost his property, he was taken before the judges a document was prepared which stated that the land had passed from the debtor into the possession of the on whom he owed the debt. But this transfer was not a permanent transfer. When the year of Jubilee came the land was returned to the original owner. In the meantime it could be redeemed and returned to him. There were two ways this transaction would work. Either the man himself could repay the redemption price which was very unlikely, because he was now a servant. Secondly it could be purchased back by a near relative, an uncle or closer kinsman. The terms were written on two different scrolls, or as we see in Revelation books. On both of these were written the terms of the redemption of the lost possession. One scroll was left open in the court of the Temple or Tabernacle for all to read. The other was rolled up sealed with seven seals and placed in the temple to be brought out only when the near kinsman redeemer gave evidence that he was willing and able to redeem it. He would go to the court of the Tabernacle, read the terms of redemption found in the open public scroll and then go to the priest or judge and demand that the sealed document be brought forth and the debtor be freed and the property returned. If this relative this near kinsman was able to prove he could meet the terms able to pay the redemption price, if he could meet all the conditions of the law, the sealed scroll was produced and he publically opened the seals...If this relative this near kinsman was able to prove he could meet the terms able to pay the redemption price, if he could meet all the conditions of the law, the sealed scroll was produced and he publically opened the seals. Thus validating the claim and making invalid the mortgage. The man could return to his possession. Eventually the practice of one scroll instead of two was adopted. Instead of two one public scroll and one sealed these were combined into one. One scroll or book was used. The terms of the redemption was written on both sides within and without. When the scroll was rolled into a tube and sealed with the seven seals, the inside corresponded to the secret record and the outside containing the terms for the public and especially the near kinsman redeemer. Who might want to know the terms of redemption of the lost possession! That is the picture we see here in Revelation 5. Here we see the judge of all the earth sitting on his throne, in His hand the scroll written on the outside and the backside or inside and sealed with seven seals. This is therefore the book of redemption. This is evident also in Revelation 5:9-10.
...John is weeping because the redemption terms are found in the book, whose or what redemption terms? This is what we need to understand concerning this book. In the Levitical law the scroll had to do with the redemption of land. We saw the three things that could be redeemed. A wife, a servant and the land. At this point in Chapter 5 the first two have been accomplished. Christ bride the Church is now in Heaven as seen in Chapter 4. We who are Christ servants, have been fully redeemed. We have at this point received our resurrection bodies. For we were changed just as seen in 1st Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. But the earth has yet to be redeemed from the curse. The animals on this earth are still groaning under the curse. The earth itself is groaning under the curse Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. These too must be redeemed. For Christ is the perfect redeemer. Every realm that came under the curse of Adam’s sin. It must also be redeemed by the Last Adam. Adam was placed in headship over the earth. When Adam fell he did not fall alone, he fell as the head of this earth. He fell as the head of the animals. Through his sin the curse fell upon all that had been placed under him. Everything was under his authority. Adam was created and given dominion over the earth and all that was on it and in it. Being given dominion means he was the leader or head over creation. He was the father of mankind and all nations. Because of his sin the whole earth was fell under the curse. The whole human race fell under the curse. Every human being is born with an old sin nature therefore all are sinners and all are condemned until they place their faith in Christ. Through Adam’s sin death passed upon all mankind. The soil of this earth too is under the curse, God said it was look at Genesis 3:17-18...All the vegetation is under the same curse. Thorns and thistles, weeds begin to spring up. All as a result of the corruption of their nature. All of which was brought on by the curse. Not only were the vegetables and minerals affected by the curse, so too were the animals, all were under the curse...Christ came to redeem all that Adam lost and He is a perfect redeemer a complete redeemer. He is the second and Last Adam. He will bring deliverance to every thing that came under Adam’s curse. He will redeem the earth. The desert shall blossom like the rose. He will redeem the vegetables. Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes."
"The redemption of land which had been lost by its owner Leviticus 25:23-25. The method of redemption went like this, when a man had fallen into debt and lost his property, he was taken before the judges a document was prepared which stated that the land had passed from the debtor into the possession of the on whom he owed the debt. But this transfer was not a permanent transfer. When the year of Jubilee came the land was returned to the original owner. In the meantime it could be redeemed and returned to him. There were two ways this transaction would work. Either the man himself could repay the redemption price which was very unlikely, because he was now a servant. Secondly it could be purchased back by a near relative, an uncle or closer kinsman. The terms were written on two different scrolls, or as we see in Revelation books. On both of these were written the terms of the redemption of the lost possession. One scroll was left open in the court of the Temple or Tabernacle for all to read. The other was rolled up sealed with seven seals and placed in the temple to be brought out only when the near kinsman redeemer gave evidence that he was willing and able to redeem it. He would go to the court of the Tabernacle, read the terms of redemption found in the open public scroll and then go to the priest or judge and demand that the sealed document be brought forth and the debtor be freed and the property returned. If this relative this near kinsman was able to prove he could meet the terms able to pay the redemption price, if he could meet all the conditions of the law, the sealed scroll was produced and he publically opened the seals...If this relative this near kinsman was able to prove he could meet the terms able to pay the redemption price, if he could meet all the conditions of the law, the sealed scroll was produced and he publically opened the seals. Thus validating the claim and making invalid the mortgage. The man could return to his possession. Eventually the practice of one scroll instead of two was adopted. Instead of two one public scroll and one sealed these were combined into one. One scroll or book was used. The terms of the redemption was written on both sides within and without. When the scroll was rolled into a tube and sealed with the seven seals, the inside corresponded to the secret record and the outside containing the terms for the public and especially the near kinsman redeemer. Who might want to know the terms of redemption of the lost possession! That is the picture we see here in Revelation 5. Here we see the judge of all the earth sitting on his throne, in His hand the scroll written on the outside and the backside or inside and sealed with seven seals. This is therefore the book of redemption. This is evident also in Revelation 5:9-10.
...John is weeping because the redemption terms are found in the book, whose or what redemption terms? This is what we need to understand concerning this book. In the Levitical law the scroll had to do with the redemption of land. We saw the three things that could be redeemed. A wife, a servant and the land. At this point in Chapter 5 the first two have been accomplished. Christ bride the Church is now in Heaven as seen in Chapter 4. We who are Christ servants, have been fully redeemed. We have at this point received our resurrection bodies. For we were changed just as seen in 1st Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. But the earth has yet to be redeemed from the curse. The animals on this earth are still groaning under the curse. The earth itself is groaning under the curse Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. These too must be redeemed. For Christ is the perfect redeemer. Every realm that came under the curse of Adam’s sin. It must also be redeemed by the Last Adam. Adam was placed in headship over the earth. When Adam fell he did not fall alone, he fell as the head of this earth. He fell as the head of the animals. Through his sin the curse fell upon all that had been placed under him. Everything was under his authority. Adam was created and given dominion over the earth and all that was on it and in it. Being given dominion means he was the leader or head over creation. He was the father of mankind and all nations. Because of his sin the whole earth was fell under the curse. The whole human race fell under the curse. Every human being is born with an old sin nature therefore all are sinners and all are condemned until they place their faith in Christ. Through Adam’s sin death passed upon all mankind. The soil of this earth too is under the curse, God said it was look at Genesis 3:17-18...All the vegetation is under the same curse. Thorns and thistles, weeds begin to spring up. All as a result of the corruption of their nature. All of which was brought on by the curse. Not only were the vegetables and minerals affected by the curse, so too were the animals, all were under the curse...Christ came to redeem all that Adam lost and He is a perfect redeemer a complete redeemer. He is the second and Last Adam. He will bring deliverance to every thing that came under Adam’s curse. He will redeem the earth. The desert shall blossom like the rose. He will redeem the vegetables. Isaiah 35:7 And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes."
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