Featured Destiny of the un-evangelized

No, He is not. What He is saying is precisely in the same vein as Acts 2:40:

And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Notice two verse prior to this:

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

There's that 'baptismal regeneration' thang again.

23 But he that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith; and whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Ro 14

These going to hell also? Same Greek word. For many other examples see:

http://biblehub.com/greek/2632.htm

What about these?:

2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.
3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Heb 4

...in hell?

 

This is an interesting statement. What is the cut off date for doctrine not to be considered "new"? 900, 1000, 1100, 1400, etc? I'm curious when the first non biblical writing was on Calvinism?

 

BroJoe, you give occasion for our adversaries to blaspheme.

 

Brother Kyredneck,

The word "saved" in Mark 16:16 does indeed mean eternally. Notably, the only faction that I know that takes such an interpretation as yours that the word "saved" there only has temporal consequences is conditionalist Primitives and that interpretation only began around 1890, thus it is not a historical Baptist interpretation. If this is not the case I challenge you to find one article or commentary on this verse by a Baptist, or any other religious order prior for that matter, prior to the 1890's that takes such a view as yours on the meaning of the word "saved" in this verse.

Besides this, even if I were to grant you that the word "saved" in Mark 16:16 does not mean eternally, there are plenty of other scriptures that decisively prove that #1 all the elect after Christ's resurrection will believe/have faith upon Him and #2 those who never believe in Jesus are dammed

Here are only a few for you to consider, " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27) There is no possibility for them not to follow implied in this verse.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)

"And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." (1 John 4:3)

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (2 John 1:7)
"

"For by grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8)

Please tell me which of these verses are temporal and which one of them are not.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother Steaver,

The doctrines of grace are not new. They are clearly taught in the Bible. Also, way back prior to Calvin, Augustine of Hippo wrote concerning the doctrines of grace and he was born in AD 354.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

We shouldn't consider ourselves "adversaries". If Jesus is our LORD, having been born again, then we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. All we do here on these boards is strive to understand these deep issues as best we can seeing how we are imperfect human beings capable of many errors. The goal is to be of one mind. While these theological debates are fun and healthy, they should never divide the flock. If one allows them to divide, then that in its self is sin to be repented of. Love you all!! Blessings!

 

Yeah......that "doctrines of grace" phrase likes to get hijacked by Calvinist. I believe the bible's doctrines of grace, just not Calvin's version.

So you say Augustine wrote concerning what we call Calvinism today, which is men have to be born again before they believe, or in order to believe? Can you give me a link to that. I must admit I have never read Augustine.

 

Brother KYredneck,

The context of the verse also needs to be taken into consideration, besides the Greek word used. For example, the Greek word for "saved" in Mark 16:16 is "sozo" it is also used in Ephesians 2:8 that states, "For by grace are ye saved through faith". http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4982.htmI do not believe you would deny the word "saved" in Ephesians 2:8 means eternally, thus are you going to agree with me that it must mean eternally in Mark 16:16 as it is the same Greek word? I doubt it, thus neither do I agree with your logic above concluding the word dammed and condemned must mean the same thing in both the Roman verse and Mark verse just because it is the same Greek word.


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Hi Brother Steaver,

The following outlines Augustine's writing on Predestination-
http://www.covenanter.org/Predestination/augustin_predestination.html

If you don't care to read that writing as it is very long, here are a ton of quotes from Augustine from the following site that proves he believed in the doctrines of grace
http://www.monergism.com/blog/augustine-free-grace


..The human will is so divinely helped in the pursuit of righteousness, that he [the believer] receives the Holy Spirit, by whom there is formed in his mind a delight in, and a love of, that supreme and unchangeable good, which is God. By this gift to him of the down payment, as it were, of the free gift, he [the believer] conceives a burning desire to cleave to his Maker. A mans free will, indeed, does not help at all except to sin, if he does not know the way of truth. And even after he begins to know his duty and proper aim, unless he also takes delight in and feels a love for it, he neither does his duty, nor sets about it, nor lives rightly. Now, in order that such a course may engage our affections, Gods love is shed abroad in our hearts, not through the free will which arises from ourselves, but through the Holy Spirit, who is given to us [Rom 5: 5].

~Augustine~

What is grace? That which is freely given. What is “freely given”? Given, not paid. If it was due, wages would be given, but grace would not be bestowed. But if it was really due, then you were good. But if, as is true, you were evil but believed on him who justifies the ungodly (What is, “who justifies the ungodly”? the ungodly is made righteous), consider what by right hung over you by the law and you have obtained by grace. But having obtained that grace by faith, you will be just by faith—”for the just lives by faith.”

~Augustine~

"In some places God requires newness of heart [Ezek 18:31]. But elsewherre he testifies that it is given by him [Ezek. 11:19; 36:26]. But what God promises we ourselves do not do through choice or nature; but he himself does through grace."-

~Augustine~

"Indeed, God requires faith itself of us; yet he does not find something to require unless he has given something to find."

~Augustine~

'Can we possibly, without utter absurdity, maintain that there first existed in anyone the good virtue of a good will, to entitle him to the removal of his heart of stone? How can we say this, when all the time this heart of stone itself signifies precisely a will of the hardest kind, a will that is absolutely inflexible against God? For if a good will comes first, there is obviously no longer a heart of stone.'

~Augustine~

"Since these things are so, everything that is commanded to human beings by the Lord in the holy Scriptures, for the sake of testing human free will, is either something we begin to obey by God's goodness, or is demanded in order to show us our need of grace to do it. Indeed, a person does not even begin to be changed from evil to good by the first stirrings of faith, unless the free and gratuitous mercy of God produces this in him…. So, therefore, we should think of God's grace as working from the beginning of a person's changing towards goodness, even to the end of its completion, so that he who glories may glory in the Lord. For just as no-one can bring goodness to perfection without the Lord, so no one can begin it without the Lord."

~Augustine~

For them [the Pelagians], grace means the knowledge with which the Lord God helps us, by which we can know what our duty is. The true meaning of grace, however, is the love that God breathes into us, which enables us with a holy delight to carry out the duty that we know.

~Augustine~

Can you say, ‘We will first walk in His righteousness, and will observe His judgments, and will act in a worthy way, so that He will give His grace to us’? But what good would you evil people do? And how would you do those good things, unless you were yourselves good? But Who causes people to be good? Only He Who said, ‘And I will visit them to make them good,’ and, ‘I will put my Spirit within you, and will cause you to walk in my righteousness, and to observe my judgments, and do them’ (Ezek.36:27). Are you asleep? Can’t you hear Him saying, ‘I will cause you to walk, I will make you to observe,’ lastly, ‘I will make you to do’? Really, are you still puffing yourselves up? We walk, true enough, and we observe, and we do; but it is God Who He makes us to walk, to observe, to do. This is the grace of God making us good; this is His mercy going before us.

~Augustine~

"To will is of nature, but to will aright is of grace."

~Augustine~

"God bids us do what we cannot, that we may know what we ought to seek from him."

~Augustine~

"Grace alone brings about every good work in us."

~Augustine~

"Nature is common to all, but not grace."

~Augustine~

"The grace of God does not find men fit for salvation, but makes them so."

~Augustine~

"The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock. but also to cause them to knock and ask."

~Augustine~

"Let God give what he commands, and command what he will."

~Augustine~

"Grace does not destroy the will but rather restores it."

~Augustine~

 

Brother Kyredneck,

If they do that, they are to blame, not me. I am only seeking to share what I believe is the truth if I be not deceived, as I am sure that is your intent too.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

I would say that the term "Free Will" got hijacked by the UN Calvinists on this board. I totally believe in Systematic "salvation" theology (sometimes called Doctrines of Grace) but I dont believe we are limited to a total predestination of all things. So we are selected before the foundations of the world to be Gods Elect & regenerated at the right time by The Holy Spirit. Now, with a new heart & mind much more directed at honoring Christ, do we strive to be better Christians.

 

You've not proven that.

Oh, there's no doubt the vast majority of those unbelievers of that generation went to hell, but only for one reason, they didn't belong to Him:

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation. Dt 32

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. Jn 8

Again, there's no doubt the vast majority of these went to hell. But you are reading only eternal consequences into this. I assure you there were many of His children whose portion was appointed with the hypocrites and partook of the awful judgments that came upon that generation.

There is no implication that the voice of the preacher equates to the voice of Christ.

That's a statement of fact for that moment in time. But in no way is this saying all His redeemed, born from above children are going to follow Him and become the good ground of Mt 13:23.

Agree. Do you think Moses and Aaron were antichrist for being denied entrance into His rest for their unbelief? Are they in hell?

And this is describing His children who won't commit? Who won't trust Him but insist on leaning unto their own understanding? You're taking this a bit to the extreme.

Agree. Saved from what?:

1 And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,
2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:--
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2

Saved from their former vain manner of life.

There are no eternal consequences for His redeemed. None. There are plenty of temporal ones though.

 

Yes.For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [1 Cor. 1:18]

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.[1 Cor. 1:21]


God doesn't regenerate those who will never know Jesus. No one truly believes without a preacher preaching Jesus.

You promote lazyism.

 

This is a contradiction of terms. Regeneration, the heavenly birth, is a one time event. Our 'being saved' by the preaching of the gospel is an ongoing affair for the entirety of our lives. 'Saved' is NOT synonymous with 'regeneration'.

16 Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4

 

Brother KYredneck,

The verses in Hebrews do not say that those that who died and did not enter into his rest at any time in there life never believed. Take for example Aaron and Moses. They did not enter into his rest, but certainly were believers for much of their lives. You are contending (if I am misunderstanding please let me know) that one can be born again, but never believe in Jesus.

Can you name me one individual post resurrection who was born again, but never believed in Jesus to support your doctrine?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

You are contending (if I am misunderstanding please let me know) that:

1. His children cannot commit the sin of unbelief.

2. Christ's atonement does not cover the sin of unbelief.

Both these notions are WRONG.

 

No two legged preacher trumps God.....you promote stupidity.

 

This thread is proving to be rather unfruitful. Good day guys.

 

But they think it is.....the preacher speaks the Word and bang zoom I be saved. Again how you gonna speak to the child who dies 2 days after birth. I'd like for them to explain that one to me.

 

I agree with this.

I don't understand your reply here. Your reply above is in response to John 3:36 that says, "36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Are you arguing to contend that those who do not believe who thus "shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him" is referring to temporal consequences, not eternal? If that is the case, how could the "wrath of God" abide on one of his children when the Father already poured out his wrath on the son? Also the verse says the unbeliever "shall not see life", this is clearly talking about eternal life because the first part of the verse contrasts the believer saying he "hath everlasting life", thus isn't it only logical to conclude the "life" the unbeliever will not see is everlasting life?

This statement of yours is in response to the verse, "27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27). I agree with you that it is the voice of Jesus himself, the preacher can speak Jesus's words, but only Jesus can utilize His voice. I do not maintain, nor have I ever said all the elect will hear the gospel preacher, but do maintain all the elect will hear Jesus's voice and thus believe in Him. However you ignore the latter part of the verse. What is the response of His sheep to Jesus's voice? Does it not say "they follow me", but you contend some of His sheep may not follow him, but reject the gospel their entire life, thus contradicting what Jesus said will happen of them following Him.

The above quote is in response to the verse, "48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48). Faith we read is a , "gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8), do you believe he doesn't give the gift of faith to all those he quickens? Also, Jesus is said to be "the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), thus how can you contend that some may not have faith if he is the finisher of it? Also, Philippians 1:6 says, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:", but don't you contend this may not always be the case? Finally, Jesus said "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit" (Matthew 7:17A), therefore how can one who has the tree (i.e. the Holy Spirit in them) fail to produce the fruit of the Spirit that is faith (Galatians 5:22)?

Of course they are not in hell, both Moses and Aaron exhibited the evidence of faith in their lifetime, just like all children of God will. "By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment" (Hebrews 11:23)

"By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter (Hebrews 11:24)

Now back to the verse you were responding to above. It is this, "22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22). So you believe that some children of grace are "antichrists" after being born of the Spirit? Of course this is not so because this verse clearly teaches that those that deny Jesus is the Christ are not children of God, but you seem to maintain they might be.

You are saying this in response to the following verses. Lets take a look at them again " And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist..." (1 John 4:3a) and the other verse says, "7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.". I am the one taking these verses to an "extreme"? You are the one asserting those born of the Spirit can be antichrists and go to Heaven! You have to admit this as you said these verses are "describing His children". I suppose you also believe there is such a thing as elect Hindus and Muslims who will remain such their entire life, but are nonetheless children of God? That is extreme.

You are the only Primitive Baptist or any person for that matter that I have ever known to interpret the word "saved" in Ephesians 2:8 to not be eternal. Here is the verse, "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:". Can you even give me a quote of even one person (Primitive Baptist or otherwise), besides yourself, who holds the word "saved" in this verse is only referring to being saved from a "vain manner of life"? However, if you do interpret the word "saved" to mean only saved from temporal things, then don't you have to also acknowledge that it is "by grace" and "not of works" by which any temporal salvation is incurred in time?

I agree there are no eternal consequences for His redeemed. However, the only temporal consequences for His redeemed are good ones for Romans 8:28 declares, "28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
God does chasten His children for disobedience in this temporal world, but is not scripture clear that even that yields a blessing in this temporal world? "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Hebrews 12:11)

Brother, do you believe you earn blessings in this time world through your active obedience of your own will?

God bless,

Brother Joe