Featured The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

Yeah, God created billions of people without any other purpose than to send them to an unavoidable hell so he could get his jollies, so the "elect" could delight that they were not predestined to be passed over and that they were not among those billions going to fry forever, and so the world would believe that a god who would do this was just.

This is the most despicable doctrine that has ever been conceived in the heart of evil men.

 

:thumbs:

:applause: :wavey::applause:

 

A misguided sense of what sovereignty is!
Why must sovereignty, in some people's mind, include the creation of certain individuals for the sole purpose of damning them to hell whether or not they hear the gospel and have a chance to be saved? That is not what the Bible teaches. You have no proof that the Bible teaches that. Not one verse of the Bible teaches this doctrine. It is a twisted view of sovereignty. It goes against the nature of God, and is more in line with Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, who took the children born of him, and caused them to walk through the fire.
IOW, he sacrificed his own children to idols. He killed them. How barbaric.
This, on Manasseh's behalf, was a cruel, monstrous, brutal act, despicable in every way, that one cannot fathom--to take his own small children, and put them to death by fire.
This is how you have us picturing God--taking his own creation--whom God calls "his offspring" and throwing them into "eternal fire" for no reason but evil intentions. It does not glorify God, no matter which way you try to explain it.

 

Do any of them who go to heaven deserve it, or any who go to hell not deserve it?

Same answer is that ALL of us deserve hell, so why not praise the lord that he choose to save some of them for His good [pleasure and purpose!

 

In post 56.....while I do not agree with the content, it does seem to be an attempt to dialog rationally. No one expects complete agreement, they just want accuracy and not adding to what they said, or questioning if they believe the virgin birth, or the trinity, or that the bible is the word of God.

 

Before we go on with the rest of your post, let's pause here.
Yes, salvation is by grace. But do you stop here? Why?
When the Reformation took place there were five great solas.
Don't you believe in the other four? Why do you ignore them?
Can you tell me what they are?
I can tell you which one you ignore completely if not just throw out the window as if it did not exist.

 

having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures. James 1:18 YLT

KJV Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Who is inclusive in the us above?

James?
John?
Cornelius?
Saul/Paul?
The 5 year old who came down the aisle in someone's church yesterday?
Abraham?

Yes or No will do.

First-fruit? Are they all first-fruit?

Will all the above sit down together in the kingdom of God as resurrected beings of the same kind as Jesus the firstfruit?

Being I do not really know how to ask the next question to the Preterist, I will ask for those who believe Christ, in the future is coming to establish some kind of kingdom here on the earth and rule with the aforementioned first-fruits above.

Will people born of the flesh, after that coming of Christ, ever be born again, that is be born of the Spirit and be changed. Will they ever be a kind of His creatures?

Will they be considered as first fruit or will they be, other fruit, but of like kind?

God called Abram and changed his name to Abraham. What about Abram's neighbor who lived a mile down the road from Abram? Just out of luck, I guess. God would not save him and he did not know how to save himself. Just a poor old sinner, like me.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

Just some thoughts.

 

The Scriptures alone.
Grace alone.
Faith alone
Christ alone.
To the glory of God alone.

First of all, these Solas were coined by the early Reformers who were Calvinists without exception. Secondly, do you notice what is missing in all five of them? That's right! There is no mention of Man. It is all of God. Even the faith with which men believe is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8).

One other thing. If God saved no one, but committed every single person in the world to hell, He would be just, for 'there is none righteous; no, not one.' However, He would not be merciful. If He saved just one person, He would be merciful, but not just. It takes the death of Christ for God to be both just and merciful (Rom. 3:26). However, God has decreed salvation for a vast crowd of people from every tongue, tribe, people and nation, having laid all their sins upon Christ and imputed His perfect righteousness to them (2 Cor. 5:21). Therefore He is both just and amazingly gracious and merciful and worthy of all the glory and all our praise.

Because, you see, we were dead. I think Long John Silver's parrot understood 'dead' better than you do. "Squawk! Dead men don't bite!" Nor do they. Neither do they see, hear, speak or believe, because they're dead. Lazarus is dead. It's no good preaching to Lazarus about how much better it would be to be alive. It's no good telling him how bad it is to be dead. He can't hear you. He's dead. More than that, Lazarus is a stinker (John 11:39). He's not just dead, but he's dead in trespasses and sin. He has no right to come to life and no desire to do so. The only way he's going to stop being dead is when God the Son cries out to him, "Lazarus, Come forth!" That's irresistible grace, you see.

So what's the point of preaching then, if the dead can't hear us? '"Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know." Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live"'"' (Ezek. 37:3-5). 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe' (1 Cor. 1:21). When the Gospel is faithfully preached, God causes the dry bones to live and the dead to come to life.

Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred image any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thy uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy Name;
But now, as touched by living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo, I break
The chains of my captivity! William T. Matson

 

Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike agree that there is a fixed number of people in the aggregate that are in glory or glory-bound. And Calvinists as well as the folks on the other side of the aisle agree that a fixed number of people are or will be residents of Perdition.

So non-Calvinists : Please don't say disgraceful and foolish things that some of you are in the habit of doing when speaking of "the God of Calvinist" and His relationship to the abode of eternal suffering.

Some of you are so prideful that you aren't Calvinists nonetheless you spew absolute filth on the internet on a "Christian forum" yet!

 

I don't believe that there is any verse that teaches faith is the gift of God. We have been through this time and time again. No Calvinist has been able to show me one verse, and certainly not Eph.2:8, where "it is" are not in the Greek, and "ye are saved" or "salvation" is the subject of each and every following clause including "the gift of God." Thus salvation is the gift of God, and not faith, which defines the verb of "ye are saved" (by faith).

Let's look at it another way.
It would be more accurate to say that you and I were criminals before God and if he sent us there we would justly deserve it.
Having said that, for God to create an entire universe, especially man who he made in his own image, look upon it and call it very good, have the intention that he should bestow his love upon it and that mankind should eventually be with Him for all eternity--then suddenly turn around and cast everyone and everything into a an eternal Lake of Fire as you suggest would make God look like an utter fool and a man who has lost his senses. Even pagans do not worship such gods.
Thus to say that God would "be just" in so doing is not quite accurate. It is an attack on his character.

The verse more accurately says:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
--It does not say "reconciling the elect," but rather "the world."

His mercy is shown in his grace--grace of God in salvation that is sufficient for all men.

Your example is wrong, and your definition of death is wrong. Dead simply means "separation."
Consider Adam: "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam ate of the forbidden tree. He died.
How can a dead man still commune with God? But Adam did. "Dead Adam" carried on an audible conversation with God, as God sought him out. Adam answered back. He had lost his fellowship with God. He was separated from God spiritually. He was dead, spiritually dead. But he was still able to communicate with God. Not until God himself provided a sacrifice for him was Adam restored to full spiritual fellowship with God.
Sin separates. Death is separation. When man is dead he is not a corpse. He simply needs to be reconciled back to God. God has given us, as his ambassadors the ministry of reconciliation.

They can hear. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This is the source of faith. This is what the Bible teaches about faith.

This is an OT parable teaching an eschatological event. The misapplication of it is error on your part.

When the gospel is preached man has a choice whether to receive it or refuse it. We see this evidence all through the book of Acts. On the day of Pentecost about 3,000 received it, and 97,000 refused it. There was no irresistible grace involved. Peter gave an invitation. The Holy Spirit convicted of sin. It is interesting to note that those most convicted of sin were those that refused to trust Christ. They "resisted" the Spirit of God, just as they did in Acts 7, "gnashing on their teeth," dragging Stephen out to be stoned.

 

Over and over again the Bible provides us examples of invitations by God the Father, the Son, and the prophets and preachers. Even in Revelation, Jesus says "Let him that is athirst, come." He didn't say "Let him that God has irresistibly made thirsty..."

Why do you think God's sovereignty is weakened by Him allowing man to accept or reject Him?

No. Not at all. Understand that when non-Cals (at least of the kind I tend to associate with) speak of free will in the soteriological sense, we mean it only in terms of man accepting the gift of God. If I brought you a gift, and you accepted the gift, does that make you the one who provided the gift? No. You are capable of accepting or rejecting the gift, but you were not the one who produced the gift in the first place.

 

I believe the gospel is preached, not to give all men an opportunity to believe or not but in order for the sheep to hear the word of God and become believers in that word.

For example. Matt 13 ends with this, "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." Now John 10 tells us that they believe not, are in unbelief, because they are not of his sheep. Therefore neither the works nor the word of God would mean anything to them.

Now let's take a look at Saul/Paul. Saul was a sheep, not yet called by God and in unbelief did things ignorantly. See 1 Tim 1:13. God called him through his Son Jesus, baptized him with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and because of the faith he heard, Saul went from unbelief unto belief becoming Paul the believer. The faith he heard on the road to Damascus which he previously was in unbelief concerning was the very voice of the resurrected Jesus, the Son of the living God, the Anointed.

Jesus, who had been born of the virgin Mary, who had shed his blood and died and had been raised from the dead by God his Father, was the faith.

The faith and or your faith, is not what you think about anything. It is what one born of a woman did and the response of his Father to that.

Gal 3:23 Before the faith came, Gal 3:25 after the coming of the faith.
A noun, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, a noun. Consistent throughout the word of God. That is what Abraham died in, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, and it would come to him through his seed, the Christ. His seed was his faith not what he believed about anything. He believed because he was called of God, he was of his sheep.

What exactly moved one from being under the law to being under grace?
The Christ giving his life, shedding his blood, and God his Father giving him life again, raising him from the dead. That is the faith of God in Christ.

1 Cor 15:3,4
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. ----- You would still be under the law.

The resurrection of Jesus the Son of the living God from the dead is the grace of God.

That was the grace of God that brought salvation.

for by grace ye are having been saved, through the faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

I added the word the because it is in the Greek of the TR and I can not find out why Young did not insert it as he did elsewhere. See Gal 3:14, 3:23. 3:25.

You are correct salvation is the gift but it comes though the faith of God not through what one may think in his mind concerning something.

JMHO right or wrong.

 

DHK

Is it the faith that came by which those dry bones are going to be made alive again?

Did they die in unbelief and will they be raised unto belief?

Were they lost sheep and will God find them?

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:16

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. Ezek 37:22,24

Is that after the dry bones have been raised?

 

Chapter 37 of Ezekiel is a promise that will yet be answered, a promise first given in chapter 36.
In chapter 36 God had just announced to Israel that she would be restored to her land of blessing under the leadership of David. How would this be accomplished? The answer to that is given in chapter 37.

As a nation Israel was dead--deprived of her king, land, and temple. God promised that all of that would be restored. The dispersion of Israel and the condition that they were in, as impossible a condition as it seemed, would be re-united in their Promised Land.

Can the bones live? Yes, there was possibility of real life again.
God knew. God is sovereign. God alone gives life.
The bones came alive. Flesh came on them. They began to breathe once again. This is about Israel. It is prophetic about them. It is future.

It does nothing to advance your argument.

 

What is your fasination with the word forced, monsieur? You guys are the only ones who use it in these debates. People are no more forced into salvation than Jesus forced life back into Lazarus' corpse laying in a tomb. You guys truly believe that God, the One who spoke, “Let there be light,” and light sprung forth, and also He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing,[Job 26:7] and He has to ask if it is okay for Him to save them?

People do resist the Spirit, monsieur. I did, you did, Rippon did, Iconoclast did, PreachTony did, Rebel did, Protestant did. What caused you stop resisting Him?

This forces/force/forced word needs to go, mon ami. We do not use it, nor do we agree with its usage. People, without the effacacious grace of God working in their lives, will go to hell. Without the effacacious grace of God in their lives, people will choose hell for their eternal destination. Talk to people who God is not dealing with and they will turn down the 'chance' of being saved. I have witnessed to many who seem to go 'pfffft'. They want nothing to do with God. Unless God draws them, they will choose to not be saved all the way to their grave, monsieur.

:thumbsup: Now, why did they run from that Light?

:thumbsup: Why were they attracted to that Light?

'World' does not mean everyone w/o exception, monsieur. In 2 Cor. 5:19, Paul wrote that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. Now, the world means the earth around, but not everyone of its inhabitants. Did Christ take away the sins of those who died before He came in the flesh? Was God reconciling them through Christ, although they were already dead?

When the debating gets tough, it is always a general statement, and not an absolute with you. Why did they follow Christ? I guess they chose to? Uhhhh, no. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. Now, I am quite sure you will say He chose the 12 and only for a specific purpose, but He also has a chosen a multitude that no man can number, monsieur.

Are there more than one type of ungodly, monsieur? Are there any unsaved people who are NOT ungodly?

You readily admit to being lost as an RCC. You thought you were saved, but thankfully, God sent someone to show you otherwise. Were you not ungodly then? Were you not not seeking God. How many people do you have in your family not seeking Him? Would you consider them 'Godly' sinners. You hermeneutics are way off, mon ami.

Are there any 'clean and Godly' lost peoples in the world? The fools here are the lost, monsieur.

So, are there any 'clean, Godly, workers of iniquity' in the world now? This is what you hermeneutics are expressing to all on this board, monsieur.

Oh but we have, oh but we have. You just do not agree.

 

Jesus himself said: "I came to seek and to save that which was LOST. He didn't say sheep, not elect. He emphasized the lost.
In other places "enemies of the cross" and other descriptive words are used.
Tell me, before you were saved, were you an enemy of God or a sheep? Which one?

And the Bible clearly says:
Those that believe shall have eternal life;
Those that don't belief shall be damned.

Like the rest of the Sanhedrin who put Christ on the cross, Paul was not one of the sheep. He was an enemy of Christ. He became part of the family of God when he got saved. At that time God began to call him one of his sheep. It wasn't until then did he start following Christ which is a characteristic of sheep.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Do you have a reference for this, or are you just making it up?

The Faith is the Word of God. It is what Jude says, "which we contend for."
"my faith" is what I have confidence in, what I trust.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
--Context!
Verse 22: the Promise of faith.
verse 23 refers back to "this faith," that is the coming of Jesus Christ. It is a comparison between the OT and the NT.

Heb.11:1 is more of a description than a definition. For a better definition go to Romans 4.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God promises he will do.
Abraham was sure or confident of the promises of God. That wasn't some mystical faith that God gave him. He put "his" faith in God.

No. For by grace are you saved.
For through faith are you
Not of you is your salvation.
Salvation is the gift.
Everything revolves around salvation.

Do you know how to diagram a sentence? Remember also that "It is" is not in the Greek.

No, faith comes through the Word.
Faith comes through hearing, and hearing of the Word of God.
God doesn't give you faith. Nowhere does the Bible teach that.

 

He said save that which was LOST. If everyone is not saved, then Christ told a fib. Context mon ami, context. He emphasised this by saying Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they said. Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”[Jn 18:4-9]

We, the saved, we all His enemies at one time. We were always His sheep, but we had went astray in Adam. The last Adam undid for us what the first Adam did.

:thumbsup:

Paul was a goat that morphed into a sheep?

:thumbsup:

'Pistis'...look it up.

You are getting as bad as savedbymercy with all these (!!!!). But faith is part of salvation. Grace, faith, atonement, repentance are all included in it. You believe that God provides grace and atoement and we provide faith and repentance. It is nothing more than an 'handshake deal' in your view.

Once given it is ours. But until you realize there is more than one faith mentioned in the bible.

And w/o faith there is no salvation.

Again, until you realize there are more than one type of faith...