The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[Rebel]

Preach Tony wrote:

Pastor DHK wrote:

This forum is very much about identifying the God each side worships.

Each is earnestly contending for the faith which they believe was once delivered to the saints.

But let’s be perfectly honest: we are not debating side issues, peripheral issues, or non-salvific issues.

We are debating ‘Whose God is the true God?’

We are debating ‘How is one saved?’

We are debating ‘Is faith our gift to God or God’s gift to us?’

What we are debating has our eternal destinies in view.

In simple terms, our adversaries have summed up their view of the God we worship: a 'monster.'

Our view of their God: He is no God, but man’s divine puppet whose strings man pulls according to his alleged free-will choices.

Although the God of the Bible has stated emphatically, I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images, our opponents claim their free-will decision is that which gives them the right to be chosen by God for salvation.

The praise for their holy and wise choice is theirs.

The glory of salvation is, therefore, shared with the Lord.

We, on the other hand, take no credit whatsoever for our saving faith or any other saving grace necessary unto our salvation.

We fully understand that He chose us first, loved us first and regenerated us while we were dead in sins and trespasses, when His hard and fast enemies.

Furthermore, unlike our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cal friends we understand the meaning of ‘before the foundation of the world.’

This oft repeated phrase is one which declares God’s absolute Will of Decree whereby that which He decreed will certainly, infallibly come to pass in time exactly as He declared it should.

The primary use of this phrase references the election of certain sinners to salvation according to the counsel of His own will, not according to anything found in man.

Our adversaries deny this eternal truth, preferring instead to posit God a ‘monster.’

The thought that our Lord has the sovereign and absolute right to do that which He pleases is anathema in the minds of our antagonists.

But this is exactly what Scripture teaches.

When the Lord stated to Moses “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy,” He was declaring His sovereign right to save those whom He chooses for mercy, while condemning those whom He does not choose.

Much like the U.S. President who has the authority to grant clemency to an offender, our Lord exercises this same right.

Unlike the clemency granted by the U.S. President, however, our Lord cannot turn a blind eye to justice.

For the guilty must be punished because His justice will not be denied.

In the case of the Elect whom He has granted merciful clemency, His justice was fulfilled in punishing His Son on the cross in their stead.

And let us not forget that our holy God has the right to refuse to grant clemency period.

Mercy is not something owed all men, let alone one man.

Those whom God has, for good, holy and wise reasons, refused mercy, will be condemned for their sins.

Had they never heard the Gospel or the name of Jesus, they will not be judged for that which they did not know.

Instead, they will be judged for that which they did know, yet failed to do.

CONCLUSION: God’s sovereignty, honor, holiness, righteousness, and glory are displayed in both the Elect and Reprobate.

In the Elect, mercy, to the praise of His glorious grace.

In the Reprobate, judgment, to the praise of His glorious justice.

Who is the monster?

That is for the reader to conclude.

Yeah, God created billions of people without any other purpose than to send them to an unavoidable hell so he could get his jollies, so the "elect" could delight that they were not predestined to be passed over and that they were not among those billions going to fry forever, and so the world would believe that a god who would do this was just.

This is the most despicable doctrine that has ever been conceived in the heart of evil men.

 

[Iconoclast]

:thumbs:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preach Tony wrote:
Quote:
The God found in Calvinism is very much a vicious monster. I say that with a clear conscience, because I don't believe Calvinism's God is the same God found in scripture.

Pastor DHK wrote:
Quote:
But you make God into a cruel monster after the image of Calvin.
I think comments like this are very unhelpful. I am aware that similar comments have been made by the other side. DHK, you are a moderator; if you really believe that Calvinists turn God into a cruel monster and that it is a 'heresy' as you have stated elsewhere, then it is your duty to ban all Calvinists from the forum.

But would it not be better for us to love and respect each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, recognizing that the great crowd of Revelation 7 will be exactly the same size whether Calvinism or Arminianism is correct. Each of us will be in that crowd, so wouldn't it be as well to start trying to get along now?

Protestant responding to DHK

But I am quoting your from your post # 13. Here is the complete quote:


Quote:
God is just and fair. That is his nature. Even Abraham said:
"Shall not the God of all the earth do right (be just and fair)?"
You seem to deny this truth, and his attribute of justice and fairness to mankind. He gave to man the characteristic of justice and fairness, and made man in the image of God. But you make God into a cruel monster after the image of Calvin. That truly is sad.

Please note you were mistaken in a small thing: memory loss as to what you said a day ago.

:applause: :wavey::applause:

 

[DHK]

Please note you were mistaken in a small thing: memory loss as to what you said a day ago.

Is it possible you can also be mistaken in a big thing: The sovereignty of God's electing grace?

A misguided sense of what sovereignty is!
Why must sovereignty, in some people's mind, include the creation of certain individuals for the sole purpose of damning them to hell whether or not they hear the gospel and have a chance to be saved? That is not what the Bible teaches. You have no proof that the Bible teaches that. Not one verse of the Bible teaches this doctrine. It is a twisted view of sovereignty. It goes against the nature of God, and is more in line with Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, who took the children born of him, and caused them to walk through the fire.
IOW, he sacrificed his own children to idols. He killed them. How barbaric.
This, on Manasseh's behalf, was a cruel, monstrous, brutal act, despicable in every way, that one cannot fathom--to take his own small children, and put them to death by fire.
This is how you have us picturing God--taking his own creation--whom God calls "his offspring" and throwing them into "eternal fire" for no reason but evil intentions. It does not glorify God, no matter which way you try to explain it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah, God created billions of people without any other purpose than to send them to an unavoidable hell so he could get his jollies, so the "elect" could delight that they were not predestined to be passed over and that they were not among those billions going to fry forever, and so the world would believe that a god who would do this was just.

This is the most despicable doctrine that has ever been conceived in the heart of evil men.

Do any of them who go to heaven deserve it, or any who go to hell not deserve it?

Same answer is that ALL of us deserve hell, so why not praise the lord that he choose to save some of them for His good [pleasure and purpose!

 

[Iconoclast]

In post 56.....while I do not agree with the content, it does seem to be an attempt to dialog rationally. No one expects complete agreement, they just want accuracy and not adding to what they said, or questioning if they believe the virgin birth, or the trinity, or that the bible is the word of God.

 

[Protestant]

A misguided sense of what sovereignty is!
Why must sovereignty, in some people's mind, include the creation of certain individuals for the sole purpose of damning them to hell whether or not they hear the gospel and have a chance to be saved? That is not what the Bible teaches. You have no proof that the Bible teaches that. Not one verse of the Bible teaches this doctrine. It is a twisted view of sovereignty.

Salvation is not by chance. If it were, then ‘chance’ is God who must receive the glory.

Nor is salvation by one’s decision. The idol of free-will is worshipped by many.

Salvation is by the grace of God.

God’s grace in Christ is 100% the efficient cause of our salvation.

Do you believe? It is the effect, not the cause of regeneration, the fruit of Christ’s death, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Do you now love Christ? It is the effect of salvation because God loved you first.

Why the Lord created some vessels of mercy and others vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction lies within the hidden confines of the counsel of His free and sovereign will.

Do you not perceive that your arguments against the sovereign right of the Potter are exactly the same argument used by Paul’s detractors?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (Romans 9:20)

Paul’s antagonists accuse Paul’s God of being a ‘monster,’ as our detractors do today.

For the previous 2 verses in Romans are they which elicit shouts of horror from the crowd:

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (verses 18-19)

In other words, if in God’s sovereignty He has passed over many sinners, choosing not to be merciful to them, how then in the name of a just and fair God can he condemn them when they cannot believe on Christ without His gift of grace?

Furthermore, they say, if it is God’s will to damn them for their sin, it is impossible for man to overpower His will of damnation, thus giving the reprobate no possible opportunity to repent and thus be saved.

Therefore, God is unfair and unjust on that account also.

Paul then begins his discourse on the parable of the Potter and the clay, letting us know in clear terms, what it all ‘boils down to,' nor is it up to the majority vote to determine whether God is right, just or fair in His decisions.

Today in our generation there are many – too many – who refuse to listen to what innumerable Scriptures teach.

The Lord is God and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35)

Many on this board have not come to the realization that unless mercy is shown to God-haters, none would be saved.

Furthermore, many on this board conflate merit with grace.

No man merits grace. Salvation is owed no man.

Had God willed, all mankind could justly be condemned.

But instead God freely chose to love some and save them from the judgment their sins deserved.

To them He gives saving grace in Christ who came to redeem them.

But to the rest, He prefers, according to His most holy and wise counsel, to punish for their sins.

Jesus has received the just punishment of the Elect, satisfying the justice of God completely.

The Reprobate have no sin bearer, nor did they want one.

They willingly made their decision and will be punished forever.

In either case, no injustice was done by God.

No matter what our Pelagian/Arminian/non-Cals may think.

Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? (Matt. 20:15)

 

[DHK]

Salvation is not by chance. If it were, then ‘chance’ is God who must receive the glory.

Nor is salvation by one’s decision. The idol of free-will is worshipped by many.

Salvation is by the grace of God.

God’s grace in Christ is 100% the efficient cause of our salvation.

Before we go on with the rest of your post, let's pause here.
Yes, salvation is by grace. But do you stop here? Why?
When the Reformation took place there were five great solas.
Don't you believe in the other four? Why do you ignore them?
Can you tell me what they are?
I can tell you which one you ignore completely if not just throw out the window as if it did not exist.

 

[percho]

having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures. James 1:18 YLT

KJV Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Who is inclusive in the us above?

James?
John?
Cornelius?
Saul/Paul?
The 5 year old who came down the aisle in someone's church yesterday?
Abraham?

Yes or No will do.

First-fruit? Are they all first-fruit?

Will all the above sit down together in the kingdom of God as resurrected beings of the same kind as Jesus the firstfruit?

Being I do not really know how to ask the next question to the Preterist, I will ask for those who believe Christ, in the future is coming to establish some kind of kingdom here on the earth and rule with the aforementioned first-fruits above.

Will people born of the flesh, after that coming of Christ, ever be born again, that is be born of the Spirit and be changed. Will they ever be a kind of His creatures?

Will they be considered as first fruit or will they be, other fruit, but of like kind?

God called Abram and changed his name to Abraham. What about Abram's neighbor who lived a mile down the road from Abram? Just out of luck, I guess. God would not save him and he did not know how to save himself. Just a poor old sinner, like me.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

Just some thoughts.

 

[Protestant]

Before we go on with the rest of your post, let's pause here.
Yes, salvation is by grace. But do you stop here? Why?
When the Reformation took place there were five great solas.
Don't you believe in the other four? Why do you ignore them?
Can you tell me what they are?
I can tell you which one you ignore completely if not just throw out the window as if it did not exist.

As you must know, the Council of Trent was a response to the creeds of the Protestant Reformation.

Like many on this board, including yourself, the RCC anathematized the Reformers’ doctrine of Irresistible Grace in Canon 4.

The Council of Trent
The Sixth Session https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

ON JUSTIFICATION

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

As I have pointed out in past posts, many Baptists and non-Baptist evangelicals hold to several of the anathemas declared by this Council.

Canon 5 is yet another anathema held by many on this board, including yourself.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.

Canon 9 anathematizes the doctrine of sola gratia.

CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

CONCLUSION: The Reformers were all ‘Calvinists,’ if you will, believing in the election of grace, as were many Baptists, and still are today.

Historical theology is a study well worth the effort of all serious-minded Christians.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Before we go on with the rest of your post, let's pause here.
Yes, salvation is by grace. But do you stop here? Why?
When the Reformation took place there were five great solas.
Don't you believe in the other four? Why do you ignore them?
Can you tell me what they are?
I can tell you which one you ignore completely if not just throw out the window as if it did not exist.

The Scriptures alone.
Grace alone.
Faith alone
Christ alone.
To the glory of God alone.

First of all, these Solas were coined by the early Reformers who were Calvinists without exception. Secondly, do you notice what is missing in all five of them? That's right! There is no mention of Man. It is all of God. Even the faith with which men believe is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8).

One other thing. If God saved no one, but committed every single person in the world to hell, He would be just, for 'there is none righteous; no, not one.' However, He would not be merciful. If He saved just one person, He would be merciful, but not just. It takes the death of Christ for God to be both just and merciful (Rom. 3:26). However, God has decreed salvation for a vast crowd of people from every tongue, tribe, people and nation, having laid all their sins upon Christ and imputed His perfect righteousness to them (2 Cor. 5:21). Therefore He is both just and amazingly gracious and merciful and worthy of all the glory and all our praise.

Because, you see, we were dead. I think Long John Silver's parrot understood 'dead' better than you do. "Squawk! Dead men don't bite!" Nor do they. Neither do they see, hear, speak or believe, because they're dead. Lazarus is dead. It's no good preaching to Lazarus about how much better it would be to be alive. It's no good telling him how bad it is to be dead. He can't hear you. He's dead. More than that, Lazarus is a stinker (John 11:39). He's not just dead, but he's dead in trespasses and sin. He has no right to come to life and no desire to do so. The only way he's going to stop being dead is when God the Son cries out to him, "Lazarus, Come forth!" That's irresistible grace, you see.

So what's the point of preaching then, if the dead can't hear us? '"Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know." Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live"'"' (Ezek. 37:3-5). 'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe' (1 Cor. 1:21). When the Gospel is faithfully preached, God causes the dry bones to live and the dead to come to life.

Lord, I was blind! I could not see
In Thy marred image any grace;
But now the beauty of Thy face
In radiant vision dawns on me.

Lord, I was deaf! I could not hear
The thrilling music of Thy voice;
But now I hear Thee and rejoice,
And all Thy uttered words are dear.

Lord, I was dumb! I could not speak
The grace and glory of Thy Name;
But now, as touched by living flame,
My lips Thine eager praises wake.

Lord, I was dead! I could not stir
My lifeless soul to come to Thee;
But now, since Thou hast quickened me,
I rise from sin's dark sepulchre.

Lord, Thou hast made the blind to see,
The deaf to hear, the dumb to speak,
The dead to live; and lo, I break
The chains of my captivity! William T. Matson

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeah, God created billions of people without any other purpose than to send them to an unavoidable hell............ so he could get his jollies,


What do you mean by this phrase. .........so he could...."get his jollies"......what does that mean exactly?
How is that expression used?
Do you think that terminology is acceptable to speak about God?

I believe it is exceedingly profane.

 

[Rippon]

Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike agree that there is a fixed number of people in the aggregate that are in glory or glory-bound. And Calvinists as well as the folks on the other side of the aisle agree that a fixed number of people are or will be residents of Perdition.

So non-Calvinists : Please don't say disgraceful and foolish things that some of you are in the habit of doing when speaking of "the God of Calvinist" and His relationship to the abode of eternal suffering.

Some of you are so prideful that you aren't Calvinists nonetheless you spew absolute filth on the internet on a "Christian forum" yet!

 

[DHK]

The Scriptures alone.
Grace alone.
Faith alone
Christ alone.
To the glory of God alone.

First of all, these Solas were coined by the early Reformers who were Calvinists without exception. Secondly, do you notice what is missing in all five of them? That's right! There is no mention of Man. It is all of God. Even the faith with which men believe is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8).

I don't believe that there is any verse that teaches faith is the gift of God. We have been through this time and time again. No Calvinist has been able to show me one verse, and certainly not Eph.2:8, where "it is" are not in the Greek, and "ye are saved" or "salvation" is the subject of each and every following clause including "the gift of God." Thus salvation is the gift of God, and not faith, which defines the verb of "ye are saved" (by faith).

One other thing. If God saved no one, but committed every single person in the world to hell, He would be just, for 'there is none righteous; no, not one.'

Let's look at it another way.
It would be more accurate to say that you and I were criminals before God and if he sent us there we would justly deserve it.
Having said that, for God to create an entire universe, especially man who he made in his own image, look upon it and call it very good, have the intention that he should bestow his love upon it and that mankind should eventually be with Him for all eternity--then suddenly turn around and cast everyone and everything into a an eternal Lake of Fire as you suggest would make God look like an utter fool and a man who has lost his senses. Even pagans do not worship such gods.
Thus to say that God would "be just" in so doing is not quite accurate. It is an attack on his character.

However, He would not be merciful. If He saved just one person, He would be merciful, but not just. It takes the death of Christ for God to be both just and merciful (Rom. 3:26). However, God has decreed salvation for a vast crowd of people from every tongue, tribe, people and nation, having laid all their sins upon Christ and imputed His perfect righteousness to them (2 Cor. 5:21).

The verse more accurately says:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
--It does not say "reconciling the elect," but rather "the world."

Therefore He is both just and amazingly gracious and merciful and worthy of all the glory and all our praise.

His mercy is shown in his grace--grace of God in salvation that is sufficient for all men.

Because, you see, we were dead. I think Long John Silver's parrot understood 'dead' better than you do. "Squawk! Dead men don't bite!" Nor do they. Neither do they see, hear, speak or believe, because they're dead. Lazarus is dead. It's no good preaching to Lazarus about how much better it would be to be alive. It's no good telling him how bad it is to be dead. He can't hear you. He's dead. More than that, Lazarus is a stinker (John 11:39). He's not just dead, but he's dead in trespasses and sin. He has no right to come to life and no desire to do so. The only way he's going to stop being dead is when God the Son cries out to him, "Lazarus, Come forth!" That's irresistible grace, you see.

Your example is wrong, and your definition of death is wrong. Dead simply means "separation."
Consider Adam: "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam ate of the forbidden tree. He died.
How can a dead man still commune with God? But Adam did. "Dead Adam" carried on an audible conversation with God, as God sought him out. Adam answered back. He had lost his fellowship with God. He was separated from God spiritually. He was dead, spiritually dead. But he was still able to communicate with God. Not until God himself provided a sacrifice for him was Adam restored to full spiritual fellowship with God.
Sin separates. Death is separation. When man is dead he is not a corpse. He simply needs to be reconciled back to God. God has given us, as his ambassadors the ministry of reconciliation.

So what's the point of preaching then, if the dead can't hear us?

They can hear. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This is the source of faith. This is what the Bible teaches about faith.

'"Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know." Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live"'"' (Ezek. 37:3-5).

This is an OT parable teaching an eschatological event. The misapplication of it is error on your part.

'For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe' (1 Cor. 1:21). When the Gospel is faithfully preached, God causes the dry bones to live and the dead to come to life.

When the gospel is preached man has a choice whether to receive it or refuse it. We see this evidence all through the book of Acts. On the day of Pentecost about 3,000 received it, and 97,000 refused it. There was no irresistible grace involved. Peter gave an invitation. The Holy Spirit convicted of sin. It is interesting to note that those most convicted of sin were those that refused to trust Christ. They "resisted" the Spirit of God, just as they did in Acts 7, "gnashing on their teeth," dragging Stephen out to be stoned.

 

[PreachTony]

Would think that IF God viewed this issue as you would say that He does, then either God is NOT all sovereign and powerful, as more stay lost then get saved, or that He is somehow limited Himself to rely upon the free will of Man to save ourselves, in the sense that He cannot save anyone until they make that decision of "own free will"

Over and over again the Bible provides us examples of invitations by God the Father, the Son, and the prophets and preachers. Even in Revelation, Jesus says "Let him that is athirst, come." He didn't say "Let him that God has irresistibly made thirsty..."

Why do you think God's sovereignty is weakened by Him allowing man to accept or reject Him?

That would presuppose though that fallen sinners actually can do that for themselves, correct?

No. Not at all. Understand that when non-Cals (at least of the kind I tend to associate with) speak of free will in the soteriological sense, we mean it only in terms of man accepting the gift of God. If I brought you a gift, and you accepted the gift, does that make you the one who provided the gift? No. You are capable of accepting or rejecting the gift, but you were not the one who produced the gift in the first place.

 

[percho]

I don't believe that there is any verse that teaches faith is the gift of God. We have been through this time and time again. No Calvinist has been able to show me one verse, and certainly not Eph.2:8, where "it is" are not in the Greek, and "ye are saved" or "salvation" is the subject of each and every following clause including "the gift of God." Thus salvation is the gift of God, and not faith, which defines the verb of "ye are saved" (by faith).


Let's look at it another way.
It would be more accurate to say that you and I were criminals before God and if he sent us there we would justly deserve it.
Having said that, for God to create an entire universe, especially man who he made in his own image, look upon it and call it very good, have the intention that he should bestow his love upon it and that mankind should eventually be with Him for all eternity--then suddenly turn around and cast everyone and everything into a an eternal Lake of Fire as you suggest would make God look like an utter fool and a man who has lost his senses. Even pagans do not worship such gods.
Thus to say that God would "be just" in so doing is not quite accurate. It is an attack on his character.

The verse more accurately says:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
--It does not say "reconciling the elect," but rather "the world."

His mercy is shown in his grace--grace of God in salvation that is sufficient for all men.


Your example is wrong, and your definition of death is wrong. Dead simply means "separation."
Consider Adam: "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
Adam ate of the forbidden tree. He died.
How can a dead man still commune with God? But Adam did. "Dead Adam" carried on an audible conversation with God, as God sought him out. Adam answered back. He had lost his fellowship with God. He was separated from God spiritually. He was dead, spiritually dead. But he was still able to communicate with God. Not until God himself provided a sacrifice for him was Adam restored to full spiritual fellowship with God.
Sin separates. Death is separation. When man is dead he is not a corpse. He simply needs to be reconciled back to God. God has given us, as his ambassadors the ministry of reconciliation.


They can hear. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This is the source of faith. This is what the Bible teaches about faith.

This is an OT parable teaching an eschatological event. The misapplication of it is error on your part.

When the gospel is preached man has a choice whether to receive it or refuse it. We see this evidence all through the book of Acts. On the day of Pentecost about 3,000 received it, and 97,000 refused it. There was no irresistible grace involved. Peter gave an invitation. The Holy Spirit convicted of sin. It is interesting to note that those most convicted of sin were those that refused to trust Christ. They "resisted" the Spirit of God, just as they did in Acts 7, "gnashing on their teeth," dragging Stephen out to be stoned.

I believe the gospel is preached, not to give all men an opportunity to believe or not but in order for the sheep to hear the word of God and become believers in that word.

For example. Matt 13 ends with this, "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." Now John 10 tells us that they believe not, are in unbelief, because they are not of his sheep. Therefore neither the works nor the word of God would mean anything to them.

Now let's take a look at Saul/Paul. Saul was a sheep, not yet called by God and in unbelief did things ignorantly. See 1 Tim 1:13. God called him through his Son Jesus, baptized him with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and because of the faith he heard, Saul went from unbelief unto belief becoming Paul the believer. The faith he heard on the road to Damascus which he previously was in unbelief concerning was the very voice of the resurrected Jesus, the Son of the living God, the Anointed.

Jesus, who had been born of the virgin Mary, who had shed his blood and died and had been raised from the dead by God his Father, was the faith.

The faith and or your faith, is not what you think about anything. It is what one born of a woman did and the response of his Father to that.

Gal 3:23 Before the faith came, Gal 3:25 after the coming of the faith.
A noun, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, a noun. Consistent throughout the word of God. That is what Abraham died in, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, and it would come to him through his seed, the Christ. His seed was his faith not what he believed about anything. He believed because he was called of God, he was of his sheep.

What exactly moved one from being under the law to being under grace?
The Christ giving his life, shedding his blood, and God his Father giving him life again, raising him from the dead. That is the faith of God in Christ.

1 Cor 15:3,4
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. ----- You would still be under the law.

The resurrection of Jesus the Son of the living God from the dead is the grace of God.

That was the grace of God that brought salvation.

for by grace ye are having been saved, through the faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

I added the word the because it is in the Greek of the TR and I can not find out why Young did not insert it as he did elsewhere. See Gal 3:14, 3:23. 3:25.

You are correct salvation is the gift but it comes though the faith of God not through what one may think in his mind concerning something.

JMHO right or wrong.

 

[percho]

I believe the gospel is preached, not to give all men an opportunity to believe or not but in order for the sheep to hear the word of God and become believers in that word.

For example. Matt 13 ends with this, "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." Now John 10 tells us that they believe not, are in unbelief, because they are not of his sheep. Therefore neither the works nor the word of God would mean anything to them.

Now let's take a look at Saul/Paul. Saul was a sheep, not yet called by God and in unbelief did things ignorantly. See 1 Tim 1:13. God called him through his Son Jesus, baptized him with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and because of the faith he heard, Saul went from unbelief unto belief becoming Paul the believer. The faith he heard on the road to Damascus which he previously was in unbelief concerning was the very voice of the resurrected Jesus, the Son of the living God, the Anointed.

Jesus, who had been born of the virgin Mary, who had shed his blood and died and had been raised from the dead by God his Father, was the faith.

The faith and or your faith, is not what you think about anything. It is what one born of a woman did and the response of his Father to that.

Gal 3:23 Before the faith came, Gal 3:25 after the coming of the faith.
A noun, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, a noun. Consistent throughout the word of God. That is what Abraham died in, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, and it would come to him through his seed, the Christ. His seed was his faith not what he believed about anything. He believed because he was called of God, he was of his sheep.

What exactly moved one from being under the law to being under grace?
The Christ giving his life, shedding his blood, and God his Father giving him life again, raising him from the dead. That is the faith of God in Christ.

1 Cor 15:3,4
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. ----- You would still be under the law.

The resurrection of Jesus the Son of the living God from the dead is the grace of God.

That was the grace of God that brought salvation.

for by grace ye are having been saved, through the faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

I added the word the because it is in the Greek of the TR and I can not find out why Young did not insert it as he did elsewhere. See Gal 3:14, 3:23. 3:25.

You are correct salvation is the gift but it comes though the faith of God not through what one may think in his mind concerning something.

JMHO right or wrong.

DHK

Is it the faith that came by which those dry bones are going to be made alive again?

Did they die in unbelief and will they be raised unto belief?

Were they lost sheep and will God find them?

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:16

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. Ezek 37:22,24

Is that after the dry bones have been raised?

 

[DHK]

DHK

Is it the faith that came by which those dry bones are going to be made alive again?

Did they die in unbelief and will they be raised unto belief?

Were they lost sheep and will God find them?

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:16

And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. Ezek 37:22,24

Is that after the dry bones have been raised?

Chapter 37 of Ezekiel is a promise that will yet be answered, a promise first given in chapter 36.
In chapter 36 God had just announced to Israel that she would be restored to her land of blessing under the leadership of David. How would this be accomplished? The answer to that is given in chapter 37.

As a nation Israel was dead--deprived of her king, land, and temple. God promised that all of that would be restored. The dispersion of Israel and the condition that they were in, as impossible a condition as it seemed, would be re-united in their Promised Land.

Can the bones live? Yes, there was possibility of real life again.
God knew. God is sovereign. God alone gives life.
The bones came alive. Flesh came on them. They began to breathe once again. This is about Israel. It is prophetic about them. It is future.

It does nothing to advance your argument.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why not read the book of Acts and see why some came to Christ and others didn't. For example, on the Day of Pentecost there were about 100,000 present. Only 3,000 were saved. What happened to the other 97,000? With all the spiritual manifestations, the miracles, the sermon by Peter, the obvious conviction of the Holy Spirit ("Men and brethren what shall we do?"). Why didn't more get saved? They "resisted" the Holy Spirit. Others "chose" of their own free will to receive Christ. They were not forced to do so. There was no irresistible grace forcing them to receive Christ and be saved. It was their decision to do so.

What is your fasination with the word forced, monsieur? You guys are the only ones who use it in these debates. People are no more forced into salvation than Jesus forced life back into Lazarus' corpse laying in a tomb. You guys truly believe that God, the One who spoke, “Let there be light,” and light sprung forth, and also He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing,[Job 26:7] and He has to ask if it is okay for Him to save them?

People do resist the Spirit, monsieur. I did, you did, Rippon did, Iconoclast did, PreachTony did, Rebel did, Protestant did. What caused you stop resisting Him?

A person does not get saved because he chooses not to get saved, not because God forces him one way or another. That would be cruelty.

This forces/force/forced word needs to go, mon ami. We do not use it, nor do we agree with its usage. People, without the effacacious grace of God working in their lives, will go to hell. Without the effacacious grace of God in their lives, people will choose hell for their eternal destination. Talk to people who God is not dealing with and they will turn down the 'chance' of being saved. I have witnessed to many who seem to go 'pfffft'. They want nothing to do with God. Unless God draws them, they will choose to not be saved all the way to their grave, monsieur.

In John 3:19, Jesus is the light who came into the world--the sinless perfect lamb of God. Sinful ungodly men run away from His Light.

:thumbsup: Now, why did they run from that Light?

But others are attracted to it.

:thumbsup: Why were they attracted to that Light?

John the Baptist said: "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world."

'World' does not mean everyone w/o exception, monsieur. In 2 Cor. 5:19, Paul wrote that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. Now, the world means the earth around, but not everyone of its inhabitants. Did Christ take away the sins of those who died before He came in the flesh? Was God reconciling them through Christ, although they were already dead?

He pointed his disciples to Jesus and they followed him. They had not yet become followers of Christ, but they were attracted to the Light. So were Andrew, Peter and John. Not ALL men are condemned by the Light. Some are attracted to it. The statement is a general statement about mankind, not an absolute. Don't take such statements out of context simply because of your Calvinism.

When the debating gets tough, it is always a general statement, and not an absolute with you. Why did they follow Christ? I guess they chose to? Uhhhh, no. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. Now, I am quite sure you will say He chose the 12 and only for a specific purpose, but He also has a chosen a multitude that no man can number, monsieur.

Again, context. What is the verse really saying.
Psa.14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
--David is speaking about the ungodly--the fool.

Are there more than one type of ungodly, monsieur? Are there any unsaved people who are NOT ungodly?

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
--It is the fool, the ungodly that don't understand and seek God. That is who God is looking down upon. That is the context.

You readily admit to being lost as an RCC. You thought you were saved, but thankfully, God sent someone to show you otherwise. Were you not ungodly then? Were you not not seeking God. How many people do you have in your family not seeking Him? Would you consider them 'Godly' sinners. You hermeneutics are way off, mon ami.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
--Does "all mean all" here? Had David also "gone aside? No.
This refers to the ungodly fools that had gone aside and had altogether become filthy. They were the ones that did no good, not even one of them.

Are there any 'clean and Godly' lost peoples in the world? The fools here are the lost, monsieur.

As verse one opens the context verse four furthers the context and completes it:
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
--Between verses one and four are 2 and 3. They are the ungodly fools also referred to here as "workers of iniquity."

So, are there any 'clean, Godly, workers of iniquity' in the world now? This is what you hermeneutics are expressing to all on this board, monsieur.

There is no such thing as Total Inability.
There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace.
Neither concept can be proven through scripture.

Oh but we have, oh but we have. You just do not agree.

 

[DHK]

I believe the gospel is preached, not to give all men an opportunity to believe or not but in order for the sheep to hear the word of God and become believers in that word.

Jesus himself said: "I came to seek and to save that which was LOST. He didn't say sheep, not elect. He emphasized the lost.
In other places "enemies of the cross" and other descriptive words are used.
Tell me, before you were saved, were you an enemy of God or a sheep? Which one?

For example. Matt 13 ends with this, "And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief." Now John 10 tells us that they believe not, are in unbelief, because they are not of his sheep. Therefore neither the works nor the word of God would mean anything to them.

And the Bible clearly says:
Those that believe shall have eternal life;
Those that don't belief shall be damned.

Now let's take a look at Saul/Paul. Saul was a sheep, not yet called by God and in unbelief did things ignorantly.

Like the rest of the Sanhedrin who put Christ on the cross, Paul was not one of the sheep. He was an enemy of Christ. He became part of the family of God when he got saved. At that time God began to call him one of his sheep. It wasn't until then did he start following Christ which is a characteristic of sheep.

See 1 Tim 1:13. God called him through his Son Jesus, baptized him with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth and because of the faith he heard, Saul went from unbelief unto belief becoming Paul the believer. The faith he heard on the road to Damascus which he previously was in unbelief concerning was the very voice of the resurrected Jesus, the Son of the living God, the Anointed.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Jesus, who had been born of the virgin Mary, who had shed his blood and died and had been raised from the dead by God his Father, was the faith.

Do you have a reference for this, or are you just making it up?

The faith and or your faith, is not what you think about anything. It is what one born of a woman did and the response of his Father to that.

The Faith is the Word of God. It is what Jude says, "which we contend for."
"my faith" is what I have confidence in, what I trust.

Gal 3:23 Before the faith came, Gal 3:25 after the coming of the faith.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
--Context!
Verse 22: the Promise of faith.
verse 23 refers back to "this faith," that is the coming of Jesus Christ. It is a comparison between the OT and the NT.

A noun, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, a noun. Consistent throughout the word of God. That is what Abraham died in, the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen, and it would come to him through his seed, the Christ. His seed was his faith not what he believed about anything. He believed because he was called of God, he was of his sheep.

Heb.11:1 is more of a description than a definition. For a better definition go to Romans 4.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God promises he will do.
Abraham was sure or confident of the promises of God. That wasn't some mystical faith that God gave him. He put "his" faith in God.

What exactly moved one from being under the law to being under grace?
The Christ giving his life, shedding his blood, and God his Father giving him life again, raising him from the dead. That is the faith of God in Christ.

1 Cor 15:3,4
how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. ----- You would still be under the law.

The resurrection of Jesus the Son of the living God from the dead is the grace of God.

That was the grace of God that brought salvation.

for by grace ye are having been saved, through the faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,

No. For by grace are you saved.
For through faith are you
Not of you is your salvation.
Salvation is the gift.
Everything revolves around salvation.

I added the word the because it is in the Greek of the TR and I can not find out why Young did not insert it as he did elsewhere. See Gal 3:14, 3:23. 3:25.

Do you know how to diagram a sentence? Remember also that "It is" is not in the Greek.

You are correct salvation is the gift but it comes though the faith of God not through what one may think in his mind concerning something.

JMHO right or wrong.

No, faith comes through the Word.
Faith comes through hearing, and hearing of the Word of God.
God doesn't give you faith. Nowhere does the Bible teach that.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Jesus himself said: "I came to seek and to save that which was LOST. He didn't say sheep, not elect. He emphasized the lost.

He said save that which was LOST. If everyone is not saved, then Christ told a fib. Context mon ami, context. He emphasised this by saying Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground. Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they said. Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.”[Jn 18:4-9]

In other places "enemies of the cross" and other descriptive words are used.
Tell me, before you were saved, were you an enemy of God or a sheep? Which one?

We, the saved, we all His enemies at one time. We were always His sheep, but we had went astray in Adam. The last Adam undid for us what the first Adam did.

And the Bible clearly says:
Those that believe shall have eternal life;
Those that don't belief shall be damned.

:thumbsup:

Like the rest of the Sanhedrin who put Christ on the cross, Paul was not one of the sheep. He was an enemy of Christ. He became part of the family of God when he got saved. At that time God began to call him one of his sheep. It wasn't until then did he start following Christ which is a characteristic of sheep.

Paul was a goat that morphed into a sheep?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

:thumbsup:

The Faith is the Word of God. It is what Jude says, "which we contend for."
"my faith" is what I have confidence in, what I trust.

'Pistis'...look it up.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
--Context!
Verse 22: the Promise of faith.
verse 23 refers back to "this faith," that is the coming of Jesus Christ. It is a comparison between the OT and the NT.

You are getting as bad as savedbymercy with all these (!!!!). But faith is part of salvation. Grace, faith, atonement, repentance are all included in it. You believe that God provides grace and atoement and we provide faith and repentance. It is nothing more than an 'handshake deal' in your view.

Heb.11:1 is more of a description than a definition. For a better definition go to Romans 4.
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God promises he will do.
Abraham was sure or confident of the promises of God. That wasn't some mystical faith that God gave him. He put "his" faith in God.

Once given it is ours. But until you realize there is more than one faith mentioned in the bible.

No. For by grace are you saved.
For through faith are you
Not of you is your salvation.
Salvation is the gift.
Everything revolves around salvation.

And w/o faith there is no salvation.

No, faith comes through the Word.
Faith comes through hearing, and hearing of the Word of God.
God doesn't give you faith. Nowhere does the Bible teach that.

Again, until you realize there are more than one type of faith...