Featured If Adam Hadn't Sinned...

maybe but your doctrine is mixed

Jesus is a descendant of Adam Luke 3, on his mama's side. He was God in the flesh. You are a spiritual being in the flesh. You are a sinner, Jesus, since God was not. He was 100% God and 100% man. , a relative of yours and mine

 

Luke 3 is Mary's genealogy, no man's seed involved.

His flesh and blood is ours, His spirit IS GOD.

 

Are you saying Jesus was in Adam?

The Bible speaks of sinful flesh.
Are you saying He had sinful flesh like we do?

 

The spirit/souls sin , flesh and blood does not.

We share flesh and blood with Adam and Jesus (or we could not be saved by one man's death)

Jesus flesh and blood were sinless, but yours is as well. Since Jesus was God , He was sinless.
You are a sinner, not because of Adam but because of you.

You are equating the flesh as in the carnal nature with the cells of your body.
How does your body sin without you soul /spirit? Your eternal part sin, your physical pays the temporarily, Your soul eternally ( unless saved)

Man does not inherit sin or the sin nature. We just all have it in addition to a fleshly body. Jesus did not have a sinful nature. but he had a regular body. DNA from Mary . That is how we are related and share in the death unto salvation,

God paid for sin, through mankind we ALL can be saved

 

Man does not inherit sin or the sin nature?... According to Paul speaking in Romans you seem to be in error... Brother Glen

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

Not only did he says this in Romans he names it and claims it for himself in 1st Timothy!

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

Man does not inherit sin or the sin nature?... If what you say is true Tom then riddle me this what good is the cross of Christ to me?... Brother Glen

 

TomLaPalm

Hello Tom, let's see if we can make some progress here

God has made us Spiritual/ Physical beings....Scripture speaks of body ,soul, spirit...that is physical and non physical parts....
earlier in the day you suggested I was following a gnostic heresy, but then you reconsidered and withdrew that post, or it was edited out.....in any case- what you are stated is closer to that position than anything I have offered, so let's see why we are divided here.

We share much more with both as we will see shortly

Yes...he is the sinless Son of God....who veiled His deity with a body of flesh.

NO...here is where you depart from the scriptural record;
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Why would Paul declare this...here is why
ALL sinned and Died in Adam , at one point in time- Romans 3:23- aorist tense....all sinned in time past, a completed action with ongoing results
That point in time was the fall...perhaps you were unaware of this....I will post a small link that you can examine


We do commit our own sin, that is also true. We commit sin because we are conceived in sin as psalm 51 declares so when Adam sinned , we sinned In Adam. When he died, we died in Him.
FROM CALVINISM ARMINIANISM,-

look for pt2

 

Here is part two;

THE REIGNING POWER OF SIN
As a sinner, man is described in Scripture as “a willing bondslave” of sin.410 Sin is his undisputed lord and master—sin reigns over him with all its deceptive, polluting and perverting control. He is under the guilt, punishment, pollution and power of sin unless he is delivered from this terrible state by the free and sovereign grace of God. Only God in his grace can separate man from his “sins” (plural) and from “sin” (singular) as the reigning,
408 “Federal,” from the Latin foedus, a league or compact. God constituted Adam the representative head of the human race by covenant. He stood before God as Representative Man. Man as a creature had no say in this; it was and remains simply a matter of sovereign and creative right (Cf. Rom. 9:14–21). What God ordains is right because God himself is both ultimate [absolute] and righteous. There is no absolute, law or principle to which he himself is subject. His rightness derives from his own inherent moral self–consistency. If God himself were subject to any other or higher standard or entity, he would himself be relative and not the God of Scripture. 409 “Born again,” lit: “born [receive spiritual life] from above” (gennhqh, a;nwqen), the necessary impartation of Divine life by the effectual work of the Spirit of God for anyone to either see or enter the realm of spiritual reality and truth (Cf. Eph. 2:4–5). 410 The term always used is dou/loj, which denotes someone who is so much a slave that his own will is swallowed up in the will of his master—the picture of abject slavery. 150
controlling principle of his life (Rom. 6:6411; Rom. 6:14412; Rom. 6: 17–18413). The effects of sin are spiritual (fallen man is spiritually dead), moral (fallen man is morally depraved), ethical (fallen man hates God, loves his sin, and suppresses any testimony of Divine truth), and physical (fallen man is liable to sickness, disease and death).
THE NOETIC EFFECTS OF THE FALL
What are the noetic effects of the fall?414 The fall or apostasy from God has left man hopelessly impaired and doomed to futility in his reasoning or perceptive capacity. As an unregenerate sinner, he cannot (because of spiritual, moral and intellectual inability) truly know God, deal with reality (he has exchanged truth and reality for “the lie” and so virtually everything is based on false assumptions [premises] and conclusions, Rom. 1:24–26), or attain unto true knowledge. Because man by nature is under the reigning power of sin with all its consequences, his thought–processes are sinful, fragmented, and doomed to futility; and his mind–set is contrary to God and truth. In short, man apart from God is epistemologically bankrupt and doomed to futility.415
• Unregenerate individuals, rather than come to the realization of the truth, are constantly suppressing the truth by their ungodly and wicked lifestyles. This is a reality, even though the witness of God through creation is sufficient to leave them entirely without excuse. (Psa. 19:1–4; Rom. 1:18–20).
• Man by nature (existing under the effects of the reigning power of sin, and suffering from the noetic effects of the fall) has neither regard for the knowledge of the true God, nor the ability to comprehend reality and truth as they actually exist. Thus man, apart from regenerating grace, neither comprehends nor

411 tou/to ginw,skontej o[ti o` palaio.j h`mw/n a;nqrwpoj [old, of the past, describing the unregenerate self. The believer is the “new man” or regenerate self] sunestaurw,qh [aor., was crucified, a past event], i[na katarghqh/| / [emph. pos. rendered inoperative, stripped of its controlling power or influence] to. sw/ma th/j a`marti,aj( tou/ mhke,ti douleu,ein [to serve as a willing bondslave] h`ma/j th/| a`marti,a|\[Sin is arthrous, and so personified]. 412 a`marti,a ga.r u`mw/n ouv kurieu,sei\ ouv ga,r evste u`po. no,mon [anarth., under a mere outward principle of law] avlla. u`po. ca,rinÅ [anarth., under an inward principle of grace]. Without the def. art. [arthrous], both “law” and “grace” refer to principles. A principle of “law” could only command, but could never enable; a principle of grace, working inwardly and effectually, enables the believer to conform in principle to God’s commands. The unbeliever or unregenerate individual remains under the reigning power of sin. 413 No man is free. He is either a willing bondslave of sin or a willing bondslave of righteousness! 414 “Noetic” derives from the noun nou/j, “mind” [the seat of reflective consciousness, perception, understanding, judging or determining], and the corresponding verb noe,w, “to think, understand, perceive, judge, intelligently determine.” The noetic effects of sin refer to the effects of the fall [apostasy] upon the mind or intellectual ability of man as a sinner. 415 Unregenerate man is univocal in his thinking rather than revelational. “Univocal” (from unus, “one” and vox, “voice,” and so having only one meaning. He is his own pou sto and only source of truth and reality). Regenerate individuals are to be revelational, i.e., they are to live and think in the context of God and his revelation in both nature [God’s created and ordered universe] and Scripture. 151

intelligently welcomes spiritual reality or truth (Rom. 1:21–22; Acts 17:26–28; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:17–19; Titus 3:3416).
• Man in his quest for sinful autonomy and meaning, has tried, through idolatry, to drag God down to his level, and has thus side–stepped the Creator to worship creation. He has rejected [reprobated] the one true God in his thinking. God therefore has rejected [reprobated] man in his thinking and has given him over to his own deception, perversion and epistemological futility. Although man has done his utmost to erase God from his thought–process, he still retains a consciousness of God and Divine judgment—the reality of “the work of the law written in his heart.” Against any truth from or about God, man has a great aversion (Rom. 1:23–32; Rom. 2: 14–15417; Rom. 8:7–8).


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No....both His sin and my own;
from pt1;
Even if a person could begin from any point in his or her life and live perfectly without sin—even if this were possible—he or she would still be utterly condemned because of original sin and the inescapable inheritance of a corrupted or sinful nature. The condemnation, guilt, polluting reality and power of sin are thus inescapable. Sin permeated the entire human race and immediately began to exercise its deceptive, controlling and perverting influence upon and within the human personality.

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This is totally mistaken

 

Please forgive me no answering the post separately, but my response here will cover most.

Romans 5 is comparing the effect of one man's sin on many as the salvation offered by one man is offered to all.

certainly by one man sin entered the physical world and the effect or consequences of sin but it is not through Adam that sin entered the spiritual word. Even though Adam is a spiritual being, sin did not enter the spiritual realm through him, but Satan.

Man does not inherit sin nature, not the guilt of sin. You sin because you are a sinner. Nobody made you a sinner, you do it on your own. Remember we are spiritual beings who sin. Your soul did not come from your parents. God gave it to you. Your soul sins, not your finger.

Here is an example. . Your are putting on your coat in the church vestibule and accidently hit your friend in the head with your elbow, did you sin? you physically injured your friend, did your body sin? without your heart? no

Same scenario, You determine in your heart to hit your friend with your elbow while pretending to put on your coat, so you go through the motions as above and MISS, did you sin? your intentions were to injure your friend, but there was no physical contact. Sinful intention were certainly in your heart, did you sin with out your body? yes.

I am responsible for my one sin. I am responsible for my sinful nature.

The aorist tense of Roman 3:23 is quite interesting. but it does not relate to the fall of Adam.

This is the Youngs Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --

when compared "iniquity of the fathers" are on the fathers. Who is " all" and when did it happen?

 

I perceive that you are pointing out the nuance that the nature of sin resides in the heart (not physical) part as one chooses to rebel and embrace that which is according to the desires of the flesh.

I also perceive that you are pointing out that the physical body, although it certainly does suffer from the effects of engaging in the overt acts, is actually subject to that sin of the heart (not physical).

I think the difference that I am seeing between what your statement(s) of view are and that of some others resolves around that condition in which one is born.

In your view, humankind sin, and as individuals they are responsible for their own sin and not some imposing of a sinful nature from Adam that "made me that way."

I also consider that, within your view, individual responsibility for sin comes from a corrupted spiritual world.

I see that you place that corruption first in the spiritual as initiated by Satan.

Ok, there is only one small area that I may disagree, and I think the others are attempting to demonstrate.

That area is that "born in sin" concept.

That is, either one sins because of a one time pointed rebellion choice such as the first Adam made in Eden, OR, one sins by choose among all the sinful choices that are offered because that is all that is offered by the fallen spiritual world until God gives to the Son that person as redeemed.

Personally, I would consider that the Scriptures do teach that second view. That by being born of the flesh (heirs of Adam's fallen estate) and also having the same fallen spirit as Adam, one is offered only choices of the sinful worldly, and have no desire nor care for that which is of God, until God redeems them.

Before I trail off track to far, is the above accurate to what your thinking?

 

thank you for your excellent post.

Ezekial 18 tells me plainly there is no inherited sin. Guilt or responsibility and I am responsible for my own sin as was my father and so forth. So I cannot subscribe to the first part of the first view.

But secondly, We do have the same fallen spirit as Adam, not due to flesh but because we are sinful spiritual beings. Other sinful beings do not have choices at all, but man, before redemption has been given the opportunity to be able to respond to spiritual stimuli, (the working of the Holy ghost within the heart). So our choices as lost humans are guided to a position to accept/deny salvation.


but because I put more value in our spiritual beings over our fleshly bodies, I recognize humanity is the method whereby God could save souls (unique individual creations of God) by the death of the shared flesh and blood. Jesus was not sinless because He had no earthy father, but because He was God in a body.

 

well, I see the embers are dying so I will poke the coals a little.

We all know tat Satan has a particular war on the unborn, prompting abortions continually. Why?

It doesn't make sense, in our teachings we believe the unborn and those not accountable are "safe", If they die they go to Heaven. We also teach that those who reach the age of accountability can make a decisions not to accept salvation can go to Hell. So the role seems to be reversed, Why would not Satan wait until later if his goal was to keep people/souls from Heaven. We Christians should be helping Satan if these teachings are correct. So there must be other motivation, Is Satan hindering humans from being born? to what purpose?

I think Jesus said this about being flesh and spirit

YLT Jhn 3:5

Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
Jhn 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

It seems being born in the flesh is a prerequisite to being born again ,( spiritually)

Why would Jesus need to say this obvious point?

 

No. Though created good, Adam was not created incorruptible. He could not pass incorruptibility to his children.

He could have been corrupted at any time.

Yes, and once they did, they would have corrupted the whole race. Evil communications corrupt . . .

I don't understand this question.

 

Oh. Absolutely.

 

Rom. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

Rom. 7:But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom. 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Flesh and blood is where the law of sin not only dwells, but operates in its "warring against the law of my mind". This indwelling law of sin, warring against the the mind is confined to the human body as its seat of operation by Paul. This indwelling principle of sin or law is passed through physical birth through the male "seed." Christ was without the indwelling law of sin warring against his soul. However, he was not without the law of sin operating within natural born men warring against his soul. Only the incarnation could free the body of Christ from this principle or law of indwelling sin. That is why the Bible consistently states that the messiah comes from the "seed of the woman" and NEVER from the "seed" of the male.