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In each case, Paul FIRST introduces the human body signular (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:12) with the pronoun "we". Are we supposed to think he is speaking of a universal invisible human body that "we" are all members of???? No, the idea is that we all have in common the SAME KIND of body - the human body. Likewise, all Christians during the apostolic era all have in common the SAME KIND of congregational body - and were members in that kind of congregational body.

 

"There is no "universal" church in scriptures."


Acts 9:31

31So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.


Αἱ μὲν οὖν ἐκκλησίαι καθ' ὅλης τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχον εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμέναι καὶ πορευομέναι τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνοντο



καθ' ὅλης = kath'holēs

ekklesia katholicos

This is where catholic comes from.

I believe, and I could be wrong I will research. The ancient term universal would be limited to with a circle rather then "everything" as we understand it.

While katholicos is through out all, throughout the whole.

Of course in 1500s we got tagged as "roman" by Anglicans. We still just Catholics.

Matthew 13

33He spoke another parable to them, “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”

Luke 13
20And again He said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? 21“It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.”


Through out the WHOLE dough.



Ephesians 5
28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.



Jesus Christ and the Church is one flesh, one body. He says yeah the mystery Husband and Wife is great.......But he is talking about the union of Christ and the Church. His reference is Jesus and church. Jesus(husband) Church(wife).

lol

Then AFTERWARDS he says oh yeah Husbands should Love the wife.

33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

 

Ephesians 4

11And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

He's describing the state of the church currently(at least to him) children still being tossed around. He's talking about his own situation.

Grown up it would be all aspects of Jesus Christ.


According to this disfellowship stance or this disqualification of "churches" According to proper ALL ASPECT CHRIST LIKE.

If one is going to start disqualifying they should start with disqualifying themselves.

In other words If Paul and the entire church were here today.......We would kick them out!

 

Again, he illustrates the "body" of Christ by first introducing the physical human body, just as he does in 1 Cor. 12:12. The plural pronoun "we" is directly applied to that singular definite article physical body. However, no one would assume that Paul is speaking about some different kind of human body composed of all humans when he idenifies this singular body with "we" as some univeral invisible human body. No, he means "we" all have in common the same body in kind - the physical human body - and this physical human body has many members. So likewise is Christ, the body of Christ. They all shared in common the same church body IN KIND. The historical "we....us.....ye....you" in the New Testament epistles of Paul are directed toward Christians who were members of the churches Paul constituted. His prison letters were designed to be circulartory letters (Col. 4:16). As you said, "the idea of a Christian who is not a member of a local church is as foreign to Scripture as it should be to us today" as they all had in common ONE KIND of church body - the local visible congregational body of Christ.

You are placing the cart before the horse. Christians assembling for the same purpose does not make it a NT church. In the Great Commission assembling is preceded by certain prerequisites in order to make it a NT. church.You have listed only one of those stated prerequisites - being a Christian - but that is not the only prerequisite for assembling as a NT. church..

Take note of the pronouns in the Great Commission "ye" versus "them." Who is being authorized here to administer the Great Commission? "ye" or "them"??

Now, lets identify these two groups of Christians. Let's start with "them", who are they? Those identified as "ye" had been instructed to "go" and make disciples of "the nations." Mark further defines this going (aorist tense participle in the Greek text) is with the gospel (Mk. 16:15). Hence, "them" are those out of the nations that received the gospel. They are Christians but they are not authorized to admnister any part of this commission but rather they are the recipients of this commission. They have no authority to baptize themselves or anyone else. They cannot teach what they have not been taught. They are the objects of this commission who need baptizing and instruction by "ye" (who we will idenitfy later). The aorist tense partciple (having once gone) in connection with the arorist tense verb (that literaly means "make disciples") demands that the action of going precedes the action of the verb. This is important, because it demands evangelization must occur before baptism or assembling under an instructor. Then Jesus changes to present tense participles (baptizing....teaching) which show identifical action with the main verb or this is what is inclusive of making disciples. The proper materials are evangelized people which comes first in this process of making disciples. However, making disciples is inclusive of baptizing them and then assembling them under this "ye" to learn how to observe all things commanded by Christ. There is a direct order and process in making disciples and it is followed to the tee in Acts 2:40-41 in the exact same order.
Baptism precedes assembling and baptism is the second prerequisite for assembling as a church. If you can find an unbaptized church in the NT please point it out - there are none. Why? Because it would be DISOBEDIENCE to the command of Christ (imperative mode verb) and his Great Commission process.
Now, lets turn our attention to the identification of the pronoun "ye" in this commission. Who are "ye"? In the context "ye" has for its nearest antecedent "disciples" in verse 16. Matthew did not use the term "apostles" but "disciples" and for a very good reason. Those identified as "ye" in this commission are those who "HAVE" (v. 20) already been through this threefold process. They have already been evangelized under John the Baptist (Jn. 3:36) and already "HAVE" been habitually assembling for instruction in the all things under Christ:

Acts 1:21 Therefore from these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22 beginning from the baptism of John until that same day that He was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection."

It takes disciples to make disciples or else the blind are leading the blind. Therefore, this "ye" are the early congregation of Christ that met for a business meeting in Acts 1 and are "all" the ones assembling on the day of Pentecost "in one accord in one place" that the 3000 evangelized were "added unto" by the very same orderly process commanded here by Christ in the Great Commission.

1. As many as received the word - evangelization "go"
2. were baptized - baptization - "baptizing"
3. added unto them - continuing stedfastly in the apostles doctrine..- conregization

So, the first two prerequisites for assembling as a NT. congregation are:

1. Christian material
2. Bapitzed Christian material

The third prerequisite is the proper administrator of baptism and assembling them for instruction - "disciples" or those who already have been through the process. They are the ONLY ones authorized to administer baptism and to assemble these baptized believers in an observing body. The blind cannot lead the blind! Can anything clean come out of an unclean thing? No, and no one who has not been taught cannot teach others.

What is a "disciple"? (1) One who has already been through this process; (2) one who administers the SAME gospel as Christ commanded; (2) One who administers the SAME baptism Christ commanded; (3) One who teaches the same faith and order Christ commanded. A "disciple" is a FOLLOWER of Christ in this same threefold process. This is why all churches in the New Testament were founded upon the SAME FAITH AND ORDER.

A person who does not go with the SAME gospel as Christ commanded is not authorized by Christ to administer this commission as that is "another gospel". - Gal. 1:8-9

A person who does not administer the SAME baptism as Christ commanded is not authorized by Christ to administer this commission as that is rejecting "the counsel of God" - Lk. 7:29-30

A persons who does not teach the SAME faith and order as Christ commanded is not authorized to administer this commission as that is "departing from the faith" once delivered - 1 Tim. 4:1;

The Great Commission is a command to reproduce disciples of like faith and order or they are not really disciples (followers) of Christ (Acts 20:29-30). Those who depart from this process is where denominational originated (Acts 20:29-30).

Churches do not just happen by beleivers just coincidently meeting together but a church is "made" through the Great Commission process under the authority of a previous plural "ye" of like faith and order.

1. Where there are no professed born again beleivers in the gospel there can be no true church of Christ.

2. Where there is no scriptural baptism there can be no true church of Christ

3. Where there is no one to instruct baptized believers how to observe all things commanded there is no true church of Christ as the blind cannot lead the blind.

Therefore, the qualification to assemble as a NT church must originate under the authorized "ye" of the Great Commission, which is preceding church of like faith and order wherein newly baptized believers are merely "added unto" (Acts 2:40-41) OR by church sent missionaries who preach the SAME gospel, administer the SAME baptism and teach the SAME faith and order thus constituting the SAME kind of church - the NT. kind (Acts 13:1-4).

 

This is a red herring! It is not that they do not "understand" this, it is because they INTENTIONALLY ASSERT apostasy as their doctrine. You are playing with words, the wrong words! They do not claim to "misunderstand" anything! They assert as matter of fact DOCTRINE that eternal security is a heresy! They have numerous books declaring that "eternal" life is a heresy. As a matter of fact, a matter of stated doctrine they assert "conditional" life.

That is proof positive they were never a product of the Great Commission process when becoming a church. True churches don't teach that but deny it.

God used a donkey but that does not mean donkeys should be called upon to preach. God uses the devil. God uses his word to save in Roman Catholic churches but that does not mean they are a true church of Christ.

So do Mormons, SDA, Pentecostals, Catholics, etc.

So is the Great whore (Rev. 18:4) and all her daughters. There are saved people in the Roman Catholic Church but that does not make them a true church of Christ.

First, you are artfully perverting the true arguement. It is not a matter of misunderstanding but WILLFUL DOCTRINAL DENIAL!

Second, your concept of the body of Christ is the Great Harlot and her daughters mixed with the Family of God. I don't say that to offend you, but it is precisely what I believe the case is.

 

I have zero doubts about my position because it is my absolute conviction based on sound exegetical based study. I appreciate your willingness to exchange ideas and look forward to further discussion in the future.

 

water Baptising does NOT grant us membership in the Body of Christ, as that is through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit!

And your Landmark views cannot be found in the scriptures nor from History, so what was that again about man made traditionds and doctrines?

 

That "Confession" there sums ip quite well what I have believed for many years, that the Bible does state that we are to keep the unity among the Bethren, and that we can still disagree on issues such as mode of baptism and church leadership models, and yet still accept that we are one in Christ!

Jesus did not die to have just the Baptist or Presby Or Fill in the blank churches, he died for the sake of His true church!

 

Would be interestring to get what trhe Apostles view on all of this is, as my understanding of the Bible would be that we need to be FAR more concerned on keeping the unity of the bethren, and uphold sound doctrines, than trying to figure out to the minute detail what is the real church?

IF we go that slippery slope, end up at Church of rome!

 

You don't have the capability of sound exegetical based study. You've disqualified all your teachers already.

If an idiot teaches a student history, you have 2 idiots with wrong history.



Fact remains you can't name one living person who has gospel right other then yourself.

 

I love it when PROTESTANTS forget exactly what are they PROTESTING.

If its not broke, you don't fix it.

 

The Church of Rome went Apostate centuries ago, and sealed its doom when refusing to change and accept the Reformation God sent unto it...
Not protesting, but did restore the true Gospel!

 

As it is written here, the English does not match the Greek. Αἱ........ἐκκλησίαι is plural. 'The churches throughout all Judea......etc.' There is an issue between the Critical Text and the Traditional Text, but 90% or so of the extant manuscripts have the plural.

 

There is but One that eternally counts, and that is the One performed by the Holy Spirit at time of conversion. Water Baptism happens after that one...

 

If you are referring to Acts 9:31 it is cleared up by Paul who recounts that time in Gal.1;22 where he confirms the plural.

 

Can you read English? every single passage prior to Pentecost denies the Spirit baptizes anyone. Instead it is Christ who is the administrator and Holy Spirit is the ELEMENT into which Christ immerses water baptized believers and I quote:

Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water to repentance. but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying to them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the lace of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

There are three aspects to any baptism. (1) The administrator; (2) The subject; (3) the Element

1. In every verse it is Christ, not the Holy Spirit who baptizes.
2. In every verse it is water baptized believers who are being baptized (except last case)
3. In every case it is the Holy Spirit which is the element

Yeshua, the Holy Spirit is not the administrator of this baptism. However, he is the administrator of scriptural water baptism.as I have demonstrated with clear explicit scripture in 1 Cor. 5:5-8 and I quote again:

5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom you believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that plants any thing, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase.
8 Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are laborers together with God: you are God’s husbandry, you are God’s building.

The problem is they are divided over their adminstrator of water baptism and you can read that in 1 Cor. 1:14 ¶ I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in my own name.

Pauls solution to this division over who is the better adminstrator of water baptism is 1 Cor. 3:5-16 where Paul discusses the origin and work of preachers in the constitution and building up of the congregation at Corinth. His solution?

1. All adminstrators of water baptism used in adding members to their congregation "ARE ONE"
2. Meaning, they all work "TOGETHER" under God the Holy Spirit's leadership
3. Therefore, it is the Holy Spirit that receives the credit for their salvation AND BAPTISM
4. "YOU are God's building" as he is the builder from start to finish.


The Holy Spirit receives the credit for water baptism just as Jesus did in John 4:1-2 for the administration of water baptism under his leadship.

Furthermore, Paul did not say "WE are God's building" because he is speaking of the congregation at Corinth and its members and he was not a member of that church.

Now, Yeshua, do me a favor, read this post three times slowly to youself at least till you understand what is being said before you respond, and when you do respond demonstrate, show, where I am wrong in anything I said or any manner I have used these texts and if you can't do that, please don't waste my time and the time of others by simply reasserting your opinion when it is proven wrong??!!!?