Featured Apocalyptic as literary genre and interpreting Revelation

There is no precedent for the opening of sealed scrolls to unveil prophecy.
A better & more literal understanding is that Jesus, the victorious Lion-Lamb, is opening his Father's plans for judging the Jews who rejected their Messiah & continued their rebellion by persecuting believers.
The white horseman Is Jesus himself, conquering his enemies (seals 2-4, see Eze. 14:21), & vindicating the martyrs who are pleading for vindication (seal 5, Eze. 14:22-23). And seal 6 predicts the terrifying effect of the coming judgment (Isa. 2:10ff, Luke 23:27-31.)

When we understand the early date for Revelation, the meaning of the visions follows.

Rev. 19 does identify the crowned white horse rider as Jesus.

 

He is the Antichrist, and the judgement of God in the Revelation isupon ALL manking, whole world, not just Israel!
And Israel will be saved in last days, after 2/3 have fallen, when their Messiah returns, as per Bible!

 

There doesn't have to be a precedent. There is no precedent for many of the images and prophecies in Rev. The Bible says it, therefore I believe it.

More literal? Really? If this is more literal, then why are Jews nowhere mentioned in ch. 6? Even more than that, v. 15 mentions "kings of the earth," but Israel had no king in AD 70, but there are many kings today. Your interpretation is not literal at all.

As for "persecuting believers," please, by all means study Jewish history. There was little or no persecution of believers by Jews in AD 70. In fact, at that time there were still many Jewish Christians. Whatever minor (unrecorded in history) persecutions of Christians by Jews there were at that time certainly didn't justify the destruction of Jerusalem.

It can't be Jesus by any normal system of interpretation. See below.

Yeah, there's that again. But Dr. Tom has done a great job on this thread disproving that early date. Your statement here seems to say we need a presupposition of the date before we can interpret the book. I completely disagree. In fact, even if the book is earlier than AD 70, that still does not call for an AD 70 interpretation. You should know very well that none of the early church fathers interpreted it as per AD 70.

No, it doesn't. There are far too many differences between the two.

1. The bow in ch. 6 but not ch. 19
2. The many names for the rider in ch. 19 but none in ch. 6
3. The flaming eyes in ch. 19 but not in 6
4. The other riders in ch. 6 but not ch. 19
5. The vesture dipped in blood in ch. 19 but not 6
6. The armies in 19 but not 6
7. Many crowns in 19 but 1 in 6
8. The sharp sword in the mouth of the ch. 19 rider, but none in 6

Need I go on?

 

Revelation refers to God judgement upon the entire world, as the world system and its people have rejected the Messiah of God!
Cannot see why God judging Israel AD 70 fulfills any of that!

 

"In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;” (Isa_40:15) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” (Mat_24:21) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." - Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, 1.​

Iranaeus is stating that the continuing peace and order of the earth is only remaining so because of the presence of the righteous on earth. Justin Martyr also believes the same thing.

"Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature" (Second Apology of Justin for the Christians, Chap VII).​

Here is another example from another Church Father:

"We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?" - Cyprian.
​

Also, Iranaeus explicitly teaches that Enoch's translation anticipated "the translation of the [plural] just", showing that the translation of plural saints was a doctrine well known among the Church. He also references Elijah's translation as "exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual". He also states that there is a period of time that "the translated just" exist in heaven "until the consummation of all things":

"For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up..... For in Adam the hands of God had become accustomed to set in order, to rule, and to sustain His own workmanship, and to bring it and place it where they pleased. Where, then, was the first man placed? In paradise certainly, as the Scripture declares “And God planted a garden [paradisum] eastward in Eden, and there He placed the man whom He had formed.” (Gen_2:8) And then afterwards when [man] proved disobedient, he was cast out thence into this world. Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place..., and that there [in paradise] shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation [of all things], as a prelude to immortality." - Against Heresies, Book V, Chap. V, 1.
​

A difference between primitive and modern dispensationalists may be seen in the fact that, some, as Iranaeus, believed that the Church would still be on earth during the tribulation:

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.” (Rev_17:12, etc.) It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." - Against Heresies, Book V, Chap. XXVI, 1.
​

I also believe that the Church will be on earth during the tribulation, although the church will also be in heaven. There will be the a division: the bride of Christ (us) will be in heaven, while the wife of Christ will be on earth (the Jews). Gentiles who want to be saved will have to place themselves under the Jewish covenant and become proselytes (Mic_4:2; Zec_8:20-23; etc.). These all, the bride and wife, will constitute the church of Christ.

Ryrie's description of a dispensationalist, that he must hold to a distinction between the church and israel, is not a correct description, or not a full description. While it is true in this dispensation, that there is a distinction between the Church of Jesus, the Gentiles and the Jews (as Paul makes such a distinction in 1 Cor. 10:32), the ekklesia was in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the OT scriptures). What is different about the New Testament usage of the work ekklesia is that Christ was going to build HIS church (signified by his choice of language, "I will build my Church", Mt. 16:18). CHRIST's ekklesia is a new thing unrevealed in pre-christian times.

Iranaeus' theodicy sounds similar, if not completely the same as, J. Darby's theodicy:

"On this account also Paul the Apostle says to the Corinthians, “Know ye not, that they who run in a racecourse, do all indeed run, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. Every one also who engages in the contest is temperate in all things: now these men [do it] that they may obtain a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible. But I so run, not as uncertainty; I fight, not as One beating the air; but I make my body livid, and bring it into subjection, lest by any means, when preaching to others, I may myself be rendered a castaway.” (1Co_9:24-27) This able wrestler, therefore, exhorts us to the struggle for immortality, that we may be crowned, and may deem the crown precious, namely, that which is acquired by our struggle, but which does not encircle us of its own accord (sed non ultro coalitam). And the harder we strive, so much is it the more valuable; while so much the more valuable it is, so much the more should we esteem it. And indeed those things axe not esteemed so highly which come spontaneously, as those which are reached by much anxious care. Since, then, this power has been conferred upon us, both the Lord has taught and the apostle has enjoined us the more to love God, that we may reach this [prize] for ourselves by striving after it. For otherwise, no doubt, this our good would be [virtually] irrational, because not the result of trial. Moreover, the faculty of seeing would not appear to be so desirable, unless we had known what a loss it were to be devoid of sight.... Just in the same way is the heavenly kingdom honourable to those who have known the earthly one. But in proportion as it is more honourable, so much the more do we prize it; and if we have prized it more, we shall be the more glorious in the presence of God. The Lord has therefore endured all these things on our behalf, in order that we, having been instructed by means of them all, may be in all respects circumspect for the time to come, and that, having been rationally taught to love God, we may continue in His perfect love: for God has displayed long-suffering in the case of man’s apostasy; while man has been instructed by means of it, as also the prophet says, “Thine own apostasy shall heal thee;” (Jer_2:19) God thus determining all things beforehand for the bringing of man to perfection, for his edification, and for the revelation of His dispensations, that goodness may both be made apparent, and righteousness perfected, and that the Church may be fashioned after the image of His Son, and that man may finally be brought to maturity at some future time, becoming ripe through such privileges to see and comprehend God." - Against Heresies, Book IV, Chap. XXXVII, 7.​

 

Please read my post. I stated that I am not a Ryrie, or "modern" dispensationalist. What is prospect (for modern dispensationalism) is really just a re-study of views in ecclesiology.

"Dispensationalism" was around long before Ryrie decided to make a (false) definition of what a dispensationalist is. The Church Fathers used the word quite often and so did many of the covenantal persuasion: one can see the idea of God giving different instructions through the ages even in the (covenental) Westminster Confession (1646). They used the word a number of times in this work. I should also state, that George Peters, the "guru" consultation of modern dispensational premillennial thought, hailed and praised by Dwight Pentecost, Chafer, etc., held different ecclesiology than Dwight Pentecost, Chafer, Darby, Ryrie and modern dispensationalism. He held beliefs the same as Iranaeus in this regard: that the church of Christ will exist on the earth in the tribulation.

I also showed, in my last post, that the Church Fathers believed in a pre-tribulational rapture of the church: the tribulation comes after the rapture, otherwise their doctrine of saints existing presently on earth does nothing for the continuing peace and order of it, distinguished from their doctrine that the great tribulation and disorder are to be commenced when said saints leave the earth by rapture. The excerpts I posted of the Church Fathers' views reflecting (non-modern-dispensationalism) pretribulationalism cannot be read in the posttribulational rapture framework as the view is commonly held today as e.g. in historic premillennialism. I also showed, that the "new" theodicy of John Darby is not really new at all.

As for the modern dispensational belief that the Jews will receive their land through the Abrahamic covenant in the millennium, this is also not a "new" belief. Justin Martyr and Iranaeus both believed this. The only novelty that modern "Ryrie" dispensationalism has brought is the eternal distinction between the Church and Israel, ie, that the church will not exist on the earth in the tribulation after she is raptured, and that the Church doesn't contain the subordinate earth-dwelling Jews and Gentiles in the tribulation and millennium. I don't hold to this ecclesiology. Yet, I can still claim to be a dispensationalist, since the very word doesn't imply that I need to hold this belief. I believe that the Church (of the previously unrevealed CHRIST) contains Jews and Gentiles, both in this present age, and in the age to come. I believe that the Church (the ekklesia of the previously unrevealed Christ) contains the present bride of Christ, and the future, post-rapture saints, the wife of Christ, i.e., Israel (the Jews and the subordinate Gentiles who want to be included in the Abrahamic Covenant in the tribulation and millennium). Just like the primitive Church believed:

"And as the presbyters say, Then [in the future kingdom of Christ] those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the [earthly] city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy" - Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, Ch. XXXVI.

"[To quote again a previously already quoted excerpt of Iranaeus:] And [the evil potentates] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight [during the future last week of Daniel: Iranaeus, who was pretribulational, believed that the Church of Christ will exist on earth after the present Church is raptured to heaven. It looks like a re-study of modern dispensational ecclesiology is really the issue]" - Iranaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, Chap. XXXVI, 1.​

 

"Unrecorded in history"? No, it was in fact recorded in history. Divine history. Several incidents of Jews' persecuting believers are found in Acts and Paul's epistles. Consider the Thessalonians, Acts 17:5 - 8, the Bereans (17:13), etc. It would take along time to find all the references. True, these did not happen in AD 70, but years earlier. But do we have any reason to believe that that situation would have changed? Of course not.

Then we have the epistles. 1 Thess. 2:14 - 16. If that is not persecution of Jews of the Christians I don't know what is. Verse 15 is all we need to prove the point. Paul says that his "countrymen" (v. 14)

"... killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men."

I can't believe this even needs to be argued.

Concerning the Rev. 19 description of Jesus you answered...

By that token I can say that there are two, three, or four different Jesus's crucified on the cross.
The two thieves are not mentioned in all accounts.
The comments to Christ, and about Christ, differ.
Water and blood came at of His side in only one account.

Need I go on?

On the positive side of the ledger, getting back to Revelation, we have many similarities - starting with the almost identical Greek phrasing. Added to this, both passages are in keeping with the idea of Christ being victorious.

I am convinced that an unbiased Christian, reading these two passages for the first time, would conclude that this surely must be the same person. It is only outside training and influences that make us entertain otherwise interpretations.

 

Also I should add, that it is a scriptural view that holds that the mosaic covenant will be reinstituted and thus fulfilled in the millennium and is one of if not the greatest and sole reason for the millennium (mt 5:17-18): to prove God will fulfill His end of the covenant, not for the Jews sake but for His sake (Romans 11:28-29). "if you will obey [like Christ will, perfectly, through that earthly collective son-of-God Israel nation, since He tells them to call His Father their Father--mt 5:16, and the Jews had God as their father, Exodus 4:22] then I will bless you and give you your millennial theocratic kingdom": Exodus 19:5 therefore, if ye [Jews, distinguished from the Gentiles, as evidenced by the Abrahamic Covenant] will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people [the millennium]: for all the earth is mine: 6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation [the millennium] [and Christ will make the Jewish nation obey by giving them God's Spirit and writing His law in their heart], These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel [childen of Jacob, who changed His name because as a prince He had power with God and men on earth and prevailed]. One cannot fail to see the differences in the heavenly Saints of the Church and the earthly Jews of the future church. The latter are Machiavellian as a prince having power with God and men on earth and prevailing and rely on physical signs and wonders to be saved (modern day science), the former have always brought the dearest advancements to the scientific sphere and do not prevail in the warlike sense, they do not wrestle in the physical sphere against their enemies in flesh and bone like Jacob did (Genesis 32) but in the spiritual sphere. The latter need a sign from God to believe and feel like it is their privilege and rite as Abraham did in his producing a child according to the promise hasty by Hagar. The latter will have the fullest blessings of their limited five senses. The former will not only experience these full blessings, but also all the joys that our exalted position entails. As Elijah. That is why he who is least in the kingdom of heavens is greater than He. From the days of John the Baptist till now the kingdom of heavens is taken by violence and the violence seize upon it (remember the Jews' inclination through Israel to wrestle with God and man and prevail? Remember the machiavellianism of the Jews, ie, the rationale behind choosing Hagar for the mother of the seed?). After Johns offer of Elijah's heavenly destination to Israel, after he gives his heavenly disciples to Jesus to inherit the Eljiah-inheritance of translation to heaven, he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. So when dispensational theology tries to separate the earthly Jews from the ekklesia of Christ, are they denying the validity of natural science and signs? Yes but I don't believe they ought to because I don't believe natural science is to be neglected...God will fulfill the mosaic covenant in the earth portion of the millennium, and bless the five limited senses to the full, not for the Jews sake but for His sake. But Israel will get to attain to this exalted limitless state after the millennium and will learn the futility of relying and trusting in the limited five bodily senses when they get jealous by Christ's other archetypal woman, Rachel: the present church. Lo and behold, in the apocalypse of John, God uses dream literature, and dreams when rightly interpreted as a science, are a sign required by the Jews to believe. The law and the prophets prophesied until John: and John the revelator becomes all things to all men, accommodates and condescends to Jewishness for their sake, as a sort of sign to them, since prophecy requires scientific pursuit into the unconscious dream life (numbers 12:6; consider also Daniel, who was versed in all the wisdom of the Chaldeans' dream science--and God granted him to have special knowledge of dreams). Moses Maimonides, a famous Jew in the Middle Ages, wrote A Guide For The Perplexed, which lays out how to prophesy from dream interpretation.

 

Jope - are you competing for a "creative writing" prize ?!?

 

The NT persecutors were religious entities, almost always either directly from the Jews or the Jews using/manipulating 'the government' and/or the masses as a means for their attacks and their cover.

Examples:

1 Now when morning was come, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 and they bound him, and led him away, and delivered him up to Pilate the governor.
20 Now the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. Mt 27

12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave much money unto the soldiers,
13 saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14 And if this come to the governor`s ears, we will persuade him, and rid you of care. Mt 28

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. Jn 16

.....ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay Acts 2:23

1 But Saul, yet breathing threatening and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
2 and asked of him letters to Damascus unto the synagogues, that if he found any that were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. Acts 9


23 And when many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel together to kill him:
24 but their plot became known to Saul. And they watched the gates also day and night that they might kill him: Acts 9

50 But the Jews urged on the devout women of honorable estate, and the chief men of the city, and stirred up a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and cast them out of their borders. Acts 13

19 But there came Jews thither from Antioch and Iconium: and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul, and dragged him out of the city, supposing that he was dead. Acts 14

5 But the Jews, being moved with jealousy, took unto them certain vile fellows of the rabble, and gathering a crowd, set the city on an uproar; and assaulting the house of Jason, they sought to bring them forth to the people.

13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was proclaimed of Paul at Beroea also, they came thither likewise, stirring up and troubling the multitudes. Acts 17

12 But when Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews with one accord rose up against Paul and brought him before the judgment-seat, Acts 18

3 And when he had spent three months there, and a plot was laid against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia.

19 serving the Lord with all lowliness of mind, and with tears, and with trials which befell me by the plots of the Jews; Acts 20

11 And coming to us, and taking Paul`s girdle, he bound his own feet and hands, and said, Thus saith the Holy Spirit, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

27 And when the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the multitude and laid hands on him, Acts 21

12 And when it was day, the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.
13 And they were more than forty that made this conspiracy. Acts 23

1 Festus therefore, having come into the province, after three days went up to Jerusalem from Caesarea.
2 And the chief priests and the principal men of the Jews informed him against Paul; and they besought him,
3 asking a favor against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem; laying a plot to kill him on the way.
7 And when he was come, the Jews that had come down from Jerusalem stood round about him, bringing against him many and grievous charges which they could not prove;
24 And Festus saith, King Agrippa, and all men who are here present with us, ye behold this man, about whom all the multitude of the Jews made suit to me, both at Jerusalem and here, crying that he ought not to live any longer. Acts 25

17 And it came to pass, that after three days he called together those that were the chief of the Jews: and when they were come together, he said unto them, I, brethren, though I had done nothing against the people, or the customs of our fathers, yet was delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans:
18 who, when they had examined me, desired to set me at liberty, because there was no cause of death in me.
19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had aught whereof to accuse my nation. Acts 28

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers; Acts 7

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

 

I'm a little offended. Do you actually think I didn't know this or take it into account? Thanks a lot.

We're talking about AD 70 here. So once again, what persecution was historically concurrent or shortly before this? Nero' persecution of the Christians, not any persecution by Jews recorded in history. And do you really think God allowed Jerusalem to be completely destroyed 40 years later for the minor persecutions recorded in Acts?

This is probably the best you can do,but it's a weak argument. Your points are not actually descriptions of Jesus but of the happenings when he was on the cross. The descriptions of Jesus Himself are no different. Meanwhile, in Revelation the descriptions of the actual person are quite different.

It is easy to account for the differences in the Gospel accounts of the crucifixion. They all use the same name for Jesus! (Check the nose on your face. Is it plainly there?)

On the other hand, no name is given in the first Revelation account, but many are given to Jesus in the later account: Faithful, True, a name known only to Him, the Word of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

Actually. there is identical (not almost) Greek phrasing in the descriptions of the riders, but here is all it is: "Look, a man sitting on a white horse." That's it, period. That doesn't account at all for the many, many differences in the passage, but is normal language for: a man sitting on a white horse, whoever he is.

I completely disagree. The passages are so different that anyone reading the two passages for the first time would see that the only--only--similarities are the white horse having a guy on it.

 

1 And there came one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls, and spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; Rev 17

22 Moses indeed said, A prophet shall the Lord God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me. To him shall ye hearken in all things whatsoever he shall speak unto you.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days. Acts 3

 

Unbelievable.

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads...preting-revelation.103906/page-5#post-2295894

 

And this is why the church has to have separate entities in it in the tribulation and millennium: for the sake of God's immutability in making His mosaic promise to the Jews, since He cannot rescind a promise.

And since things will go back to the Mosaic dispensation after the rapture of the heavenly ekklesia, the Septuagint earthly ekklesia will be resumed: and since those who are saints in the tribulation and beyond will believe in God, they must also believe in Christ. Therefore they are part of Christ [who is God]'s ekklesia, dwelling on earth.

What do ya think? Critique my proposition.

 

Church of Rome better chance to be the great Harlot than Israel, as God still has a plan to savethem at his Second Coming!

 

Why is it so hard for you to see that God has not totally forgotten His people of israel, as per Paul?

 

The seventh head, yet future at the time of writing, is the Holy Roman Empire. The harlot is the unfaithful wife of Jehovah on whom the curses of Lev 26 & Dt 28 fell.

 

The final Kingdom will be in place when Jesus returns at His second coming, as he will be resurrecting the saints alive in the future time!

NONE of that happened AD 70!

 

You mean these people?:

9 I know thy tribulation, and thy poverty (but thou art rich), and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Rev 2
9 Behold, I give of the synagogue of Satan, of them that say they are Jews, and they are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Rev 3