I believe we've debunked preterism.

Oh, sit down, John. I was primarily responding to Revmitchell.

I did not comment on much of what was written in your thread at first because I had too much going on and had little chance to be online. I probably would have agreed with much of what was written.I would have to go back and read it.

Don't understand what I meant with John 14? Neither did I comprehend your "purple cow" silliness. If you were as well read in commentaries (I mean a wide range of commentaries) you would have gotten my point. But I am not going to waste any more time on that.

Why are you still moaning about my derailing your previous thread? Is this your thread now?

You put "parousia" as antithetical to Scripture. You well know that it is a biblical term. Found several times on the Bible. Josephus, while not scripture, gives us our first-hand description of what Christ had prophesied. How can it not be important? While gematria (not numerology, per se) is a valid means of understanding 666 whether or not you accept it. Gematria is not very important otherwise IMO. And I believe there are plenty of other ways to show that Nero was the man meant.

 

Preterism. Full-blown Preterism.

If you spell it right people will take you more seriously. Really.

 

Knot reelly

HankD

 

A bad theology by any other name....

 

Typical,

The papists rise came much later than the Polycarp and Ignatius who BOTH knew eye witnesses to Christ.

Their statements as to following the bishops (preachers/elders) and deacons was that of what the fbc of Jerusalem did. The assembly was lead by the group of which it appointed. As the appointed group, appointed by the group, both Polycarp and Ignatius were saying let them rule, and don't interfere unless they become disqualified by their living.

The point of the post was to show two basic items.
1) the body of the Lord is Flesh and Bones,
2) there was no return in 70AD.

These two did not "deteriorate" (they were both martyred) but as taught, they taught. By having first hand experience with the apostles and knowing multiple eye witness (first hand testimony) of those who knew Christ, what they taught and what concerns them is extremely important. These are the foundation stones built upon the work of the apostles.

To me, it is unfortunate that the RCC portrays them in some priestly garments, because I haven't read anything that would indicate these dressed any differently than anyone else in the assembly.

In fact, Ignatius is strongly opposed to any indicators that a bishop or deacon appear in any manner as better or more classy than the poorest of the assembly.

 

Did ANY ECF state that they saw Jesus return, or knew of the resurrection of the Church at that time?

 

If you can read Ignatius and place him as high as you do I guess there as nothing more I can say.

And as far as being martyred, that proves nothing. Jehovah's Witnesses have died for their ill-founded faith , as have recently several cultic Falun Gong in the province where I taught in China. Not saying Ignatius was not Christian, but neither is he a go-to source for theology.

At any rate, I am done with this.

 

See, here is a true statement.

You will believe in spite and despite any education given.

You have been shown Scriptures - that doesn't help.

You have been shown original language - that doesn't help.

You have been given the historical facts - that doesn't help.

You have been shown the view of the earliest church leaders - that doesn't help.

So, now you are done.

Perhaps, should you live long enough to see the temple build you will then make even more excuse, I would hope not.

I would hope that as the prophecy indicators of the first advent were clearly evident, that you do not, as the Jewish rulers, ignore them, but as the wise guys, embrace the truth of the second advent.

 

Neither. He has debunked neither. And not one mind has been changed.

 

"agedman,

Hello Agedman thanks for responding to this. let's take a look...

yes...I think often we are not nearly as familiar with the OT.prophets and in particular what they say to us right now...

Yes

They were explaining this great influx of gentiles entering in....they wanted to understand what was happening right then and there.

yes the Spirit of God brings to his mind this portion from Amos9;
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.

9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:

12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.

13 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.

Here is how some see it;
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
11. In that day—quoted by James (Ac 15:16, 17), "After this," that is, in the dispensation of Messiah (Ge 49:10; Ho 3:4, 5; Joe 2:28; 3:1).
tabernacle of David—not "the house of David," which is used of his affairs when prospering (2Sa 3:1), but the tent or booth, expressing the low condition to which his kingdom and family had fallen in Amos' time, and subsequently at the Babylonian captivity before the restoration; and secondarily, in the last days preceding Israel's restoration under Messiah, the antitype to David (Ps 102:13, 14; Jer 30:9; Eze 34:24; 37:24; see on [1146]Isa 12:1). The type is taken from architecture (Eph 2:20). The restoration under Zerubbabel can only be a partial, temporary fulfilment; for it did not include Israel, which nation is the main subject of Amos' prophecies, but only Judah; also Zerubbabel's kingdom was not independent and settled; also all the prophets end their prophecies with Messiah, whose advent is the cure of all previous disorders. "Tabernacle" is appropriate to Him, as His human nature is the tabernacle which He assumed in becoming Immanuel, "God with us" (Joh 1:14). "Dwelt," literally, tabernacled "among us" (compare Re 21:3). Some understand "the tabernacle of David" as that which David pitched for the ark in Zion, after bringing it from Obed-edom's house. It remained there all his reign for thirty years, till the temple of Solomon was built, whereas the "tabernacle of the congregation" remained at Gibeon (2Ch 1:3), where the priests ministered in sacrifices (1Ch 16:39). Song and praise was the service of David's attendants before the ark (Asaph, &c.): a type of the gospel separation between the sacrificial service (Messiah's priesthood now in heaven) and the access of believers on earth to the presence of God, apart from the former (compare 2Sa 6:12-17; 1Ch 16:37-39; 2Ch 1:3).

breaches thereof—literally, "of them," that is, of the whole nation, Israel as well as Judah.

as in … days of old—as it was formerly in the days of David and Solomon, when the kingdom was in its full extent and undivided.

You think it is future, Acts 15 says it is now


Scriptures agree or disagree:

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this
​

he is saying after Amos time, that is...during the gospel age....this is now happening
It is not that in Acts 15, they are saying someday past our time this will happen...

yes...

Read the after this...as being the destruction spoken of in Amos day...and the gentiles coming in are the building up of the tabernacle of David'''

Kingdom growth now​

it is made up of people​

It is the church as the kingdom goes worldwide.

yes...1cor3;
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

yes Jesus said the physical temple would be destroyed

Sure there is and that is what Acts 15 teaches...gentiles flooding in are living stones built a "spiritual house"

 

Geneva Study Bible
In that day will I raise up the {i} tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
(i) I will send the promised Messiah, and restore by him the spiritual Israel; Ac 15:16.

Pulpit Commentary
Verses 11-15. - Part IV. EPILOGUE. THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE NEW KINGDOM AND THE REIGN OF MESSIAH. THE KINGDOM SHALL EMBRACE ALL NATIONS (vers. 11, 12), SHALL BE ENRICHED WITH SUPERABUNDANT SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS (vers. 13, 14), AND SHALL ENDURE FOREVER (ver. 15). Verse 11. - In that day. When the judgment has fallen. The passage is quoted by St. James (Acts 15:16, 27), mostly from the Greek, in confirmation of the doctrine that the Church of God is open to all, whether Jew or Gentile.

 

There really isn't any conflict between us as far as I can tell except in one small but significant area.

I will be very (maybe too brief for the casual reader) compressed and not into detail.

Placing the words, "After these things I will return" not as James was saying the prophecy was being fulfilled in that day, but indicating that he understood that the Jews were going to take a back seat until the gentile time was finished, corresponds to the millennial view.

See, Peter had already had Gentile converts at Pentecost, Paul had a great number, too. So, it wasn't about gentile converts that James was indicating, but what was ultimately the final plan of God as concerns the audience addressed - Jewish church leaders including the Apostles.

James' quote of Amos starts at a point in which God is stating that He is not through with the nation called by Israel - the Jews.
That a time is coming when the united believers (Jews and Gentiles), all called by His name, will be sought by the whole of mankind.

This happens during the millennial reign, the whole of humanity seek the Lord including the gentiles believers who carry His name.

Where you seem to see the prophecy fulfilled, I see James as indicating the beginning of the prophecy fulfillment, that God is not done with the Jews, but will redeem all at His pleasure. The wonderful culmination being in the glorious redemption and the unification of all believers of all times (OT, NT, Church, Tribulation) under the reign of Christ of whom the world of humanity will seek out.

This presents the clearest reading of the statement:
"SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME," (caps were from the source, and not my own)

Small difference, but significant.

 

The nation of israel will be reborn in a Day, and the Lord shall turn their hearts back to Himself....

 

THAT IS WHY MANY OF US BELIEVE IT HAS STARTED RIGHT THEN IN THE FIRST CENTURY....YOU CORRECTLY UNDERSTAND THIS IN THE PART IN RED...YOU JUST THINK IT IS FUTURE.

joel210 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

I think it is now because Peter said,,,this IS THAT...spoken of by the
Prophet Joel...
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lordis near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Sounds like Hebrews12;
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the Lord, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the Lorddwelleth in Zion.

 

Right, those the closest to the actual source of the NT got perverted before they were martyred.

Yet we, whole look from 2000 years back, know better then they?

Do you not see the humor in that persuasion?

 

Isaiah 66:7-8/Zechariah 13:1

 

Any of them see that Jesus did return AD 70 then?

 

We too take tremendous encouragement in the glorious hope of Jesus coming in glory at the end of time for resurrection & judgment, & establishing a glorious new heaven & new earth, the home of righteousness.

Further we take encouragement from the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecies of his coming to judge the generation that rejected him & so we can be assured of his present invisible Kingdom as King of kings & LORD of lords. In this Kingdom we too enjoy our position:

Rev. 1:5 .... To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

Are we waiting, waiting, waiting, for God's promised blessing of his presence with us always, to the end of the age? That blessing is for us now in this life.

Are we, after Jesus returns, to watch the great tribulation from a grandstand seat in heaven? Will we all be physically on earth ruling over the survivors from the tribulation? Or even ride with the armies of heaven to fight the nations, following a physical Jesus, on a physical white horse, wielding a physical sword in his mouth? Or is that sword of his mouth the word of judgment that dispatches the wicked into hell?

Should we be eagerly watching the activities of the Israelis in the belief that they are the focus of the next great prophetic event?

Should we be looking at all the political leaders as we seek to identify the Antichrist, aka the man of lawlessness?

John, do you believe all the blessings of Jesus' second coming will only be fully realised after the millennium? What do you actually believe & teach?

I believe the present Gospel age is the millennium, and that Jesus will come in glory to do as he promised:

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

No future great tribulation, except the tribulation of hell;
No future separation of the redeemed into Israel & the Church;
No future millennium;
No future millennial temple
No interaction of believers & unbelievers in an earthly kingdom;

Just present joy with tribulation & a living hope as we are built into God's spiritual temple for eternal glory in the NH&NE.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.​