I believe we've debunked preterism.

[TCassidy]

Who condemned you?

You did. By sly innuendo suggesting you understand what my theology does to my temperament.

Have you ever considered that it could be that I am in constant excruciating pain? Or that I have to take very strong medication with horrible side effects just to get out of bed in the morning? Or that I spend all day every day sitting in this chair with my lap top because I am unable to do much more if I plan on being in church on Sunday?

 

[John of Japan]

Well now, everyone just stop debating its settled.

Your sarcasm and lack of respect for the views of others is duly noted.

Imagine that, I wonder why he didn't say, with simple exegesis, all other views are defeated.

Imagine that, I did not say that either. I said "good exegesis." Accurate portrayal of your opponent's view is good ethics.

 

[John of Japan]

Amil, & P-Preterist believe that Jesus comes in glory for resurrection, judgment & the NH&NE.

The premil has 1,000 years of ?? dispensation ?? after the second coming & before the NH&NE.
The pretrib has the tribulation after the second coming. Where are the believers? Do unresurrected people suffer the trib? Or when are the unregenerate raised for judgment?

Rapture, 7 year tribulation with the 2nd half being the Great Tribulation; 2nd Coming in power and glory; judgment of the nations & judgment seat of Christ; 1000 years of Christ's physical reign ;

Is there a millennium temple? Are Israel & the Church separate? Is Israel the wife of Jehovah & the Church the bride of Christ?

Don't care if there is a millennium temple. Israel and the church are separate; the Church is the bride of Christ.

People who advocate a future millennium seem very confused, & usually very dogmatic. As you are very clear on what you believe, & presumably teach, what do you believe & teach?

Funny, you've always seemed confused to me, like you believing you are covenant theology when you disagree with Berkhof. Personally, I'm very clear on what I believe and teach.

Incidentally my understanding of post-mil is of a thousand years of Gospel peace & progress before the second coming. I do not believe that. I hold that the present age is the millennium - amil. It may be the difference between UK & US theology.

Okay. But don't expect me to debate all of this with you. The subject is too broad, and I've never been convinced that you understood dispensationalism. And by the way, if you hold that the present age is the millennium, you are not amil but postmil. Just saying.

 

[asterisktom]

Accurate portrayal of your opponent's view is good ethics.

Haha! This from the guy who strongly implied I was a Docetist.

 

[TCassidy]

Haha! This from the guy who strongly implied I was a Docetist.

No, that was me. And I didn't strongly imply it. I came right out and said it.

 

[Iconoclast]

"robycop3,
Hello Roby, thanks for responding.

First, a "tabernacle" is a dwelling, not necessarily a house of worship. So, this is referring to the HOUSE of David. remember, even the non-believing Jews called Jesus "SON of David."

Do you think it is possible in Acts 15 the rebuilt tabernacle is the Church?

When Jesus returns, He will occupy that throne(rulership) of David's, wherever it is today. Jesus will be its final and permanent Occupant, fulfilling His Father's promise to David that his dynasty would continue forever.

Do you think peter was teaching that Jesus is on that Throne now...ruling from heaven?

I'm guessing all people were "gentiles" til God made the Israelis His "peculiar" people.

But the whole world will know Jesus is the Heir of david's throne when he returns.

But we jew and gentile are now one 1pet2:9..we are now also a peculiar people

 

[asterisktom]

No, that was me. And I didn't strongly imply it. I came right out and said it.

Oh, I remember. But John agreed with you. Hence my comment.

 

[prophecy70]

Your sarcasm and lack of respect for the views of others is duly noted.

I respect Asterisktoms view, I respect David's View, and they differ, so its not the "views of others", it is the presentation of the views.

 

[prophecy70]

Accurate portrayal of your opponent's view is good ethics.

Is it? Then why aren't you?

And by the way, if you hold that the present age is the millennium, you are not amil but postmil. Just saying.

Um no. Post Mill is a golden age of Christianity ruling, which i disagree with.

The amillennialist believes that the Kingdom of God was inaugurated at Christ's resurrection (hence the term "inaugurated millennialism") at which point he gained victory over both Satan and the Curse. Christ is even now reigning (hence the term "nunc-millennialism" — nunc means "now") at the right hand of the Father over His church. After this present age has ended, Christ will return and immediately usher the church into their eternal state after judging the wicked.

• The Millennium: inaugurated with Christ's resurrection. In an "already/not yet" sense, Christ already reigns over all and is already victorious over Satan.

The postmillennialist believes that the millennium is an era (not a literal thousand years) during which Christ will reign over the earth, not from an literal and earthly throne, but through the gradual increase of the Gospel and its power to change lives. After this gradual Christianization of the world, Christ will return and immediately usher the church into their eternal state after judging the wicked.

• The Millennium: a Golden Age previous to Christ's second advent during which Christ will virtually rule over the whole earth through an unprecedented spread of the Gospel; the large majority of people will be Christian.

Four Views on the Millennium - Study Resources

 

[prophecy70]

You did. By sly innuendo suggesting you understand what my theology does to my temperament.

Have you ever considered that it could be that I am in constant excruciating pain? Or that I have to take very strong medication with horrible side effects just to get out of bed in the morning? Or that I spend all day every day sitting in this chair with my lap top because I am unable to do much more if I plan on being in church on Sunday?

I know about it already. Ill keep you in my prayers.

 

[Iconoclast]

Brethren, I would like to offer a simple reminder to each participant here. We are all interested is serving the Lord in truth.
We have 4 views of these events here.

I would like to have Ladd or Spurgeon here to represent Historic premill...but I am stuck with TC
I would like to have Ryrie, or Pentecost here...but I find JOJ
I would like to have Russell here,look at the screen to see Asteriktom
Sam Waldron or Michael horton have not showed up here, but ian and a few others have.
Ken Gentry is not here...so you have yo put up with me
let's take advantage and each one do their best to offer their view positively, and when we attack so to speak, attack the view not the persons as much..[which I can easily drift into.

We all set sail in our endtimes boats...let see which ones can and cannot hold water. I have spent time in some of the other boats but have abandoned ship because i was not sure it was going to make it to safe harbor.

 

[Covenanter]

That post should be the start of a new thread.

 

[robycop3]

We too take tremendous encouragement in the glorious hope of Jesus coming in glory at the end of time for resurrection & judgment, & establishing a glorious new heaven & new earth, the home of righteousness.

Further we take encouragement from the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecies of his coming to judge the generation that rejected him & so we can be assured of his present invisible Kingdom as King of kings & LORD of lords. In this Kingdom we too enjoy our position:

Rev. 1:5 .... To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

Are we waiting, waiting, waiting, for God's promised blessing of his presence with us always, to the end of the age? That blessing is for us now in this life.

Are we, after Jesus returns, to watch the great tribulation from a grandstand seat in heaven? Will we all be physically on earth ruling over the survivors from the tribulation? Or even ride with the armies of heaven to fight the nations, following a physical Jesus, on a physical white horse, wielding a physical sword in his mouth? Or is that sword of his mouth the word of judgment that dispatches the wicked into hell?

Should we be eagerly watching the activities of the Israelis in the belief that they are the focus of the next great prophetic event?

Should we be looking at all the political leaders as we seek to identify the Antichrist, aka the man of lawlessness?

John, do you believe all the blessings of Jesus' second coming will only be fully realised after the millennium? What do you actually believe & teach?

I believe the present Gospel age is the millennium, and that Jesus will come in glory to do as he promised:

John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.​

No future great tribulation, except the tribulation of hell;
No future separation of the redeemed into Israel & the Church;
No future millennium;
No future millennial temple
No interaction of believers & unbelievers in an earthly kingdom;

Just present joy with tribulation & a living hope as we are built into God's spiritual temple for eternal glory in the NH&NE.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.​

Jesus' prophecies MUST come to pass, exactly as written in the original language. So far, there's been:

NO coming to power of the "beast

NO AOD

NO mark of the beast

NO great trib, worst in history

Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. (Matt. 24:29) so this trib MUST occur first. it's right there in your own Bible, regardless of what version(s) you use.

 

[robycop3]

I have noticed the anti-preterist posts tend to be sans Scripture. Usually zingy one-liners.

The pertinent Scriptures have been posted umpteen times & apparently ignored by the prets, especially when compared to history/reality.

 

[robycop3]

Neither. He has debunked neither. And not one mind has been changed.

Like Jehovah Witnesses, prets think they're right, but can't PROVE a thing they say.

 

[robycop3]

One final coming, commonly called the second coming.

Your nit-picking is not helpful to a serious theological discussion.

It is usual to refer to - "Jesus coming in glory at the end of time for resurrection & judgment, & establishing a glorious new heaven & new earth, the home of righteousness." as the second coming, or the return. The first coming was his incarnation.

We read of God "coming" for judgment or blessing & coming to receive us at death. (John 14) Specifically he came as prophesied to judge this generation.

Read Matt. 24:29.

 

[robycop3]

Well now, everyone just stop debating its settled.

And a third temple, a return to animal sacrifices, a rapture, and a one man world dictator is not simply defeated?


Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80 Justin defended the position of Historic Premillennialism, but added that "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" (ANF, vol. 1, p. 239).

Imagine that, I wonder why he didn't say, with simple exegesis, all other views are defeated.

It's still future. jest ask any Orthodox Jew if they intend to build a new temple & re-institute the system of sacrifices, etc.

 

[Covenanter]

Jesus' prophecies MUST come to pass, exactly as written in the original language. So far, there's been:

NO coming to power of the "beast

NO AOD

NO mark of the beast

NO great trib, worst in history

Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. (Matt. 24:29) so this trib MUST occur first. it's right there in your own Bible, regardless of what version(s) you use.

Those prophesies were given as relating to the AD 70 destruction, or in Revelation as things shortly to come to pass. Either Jesus, John & Paul got it wrong, or you have misinterpreted.

You are demanding God provide a physical, literal fulfilment. That is carnal. Look for a fulfilment in the spiritual realm & you will be able to glorify God for his fulfilled prophecy.

Peter describes your attitude:

2 Peter 3:1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Saviour through your apostles.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, ‘Where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’
.​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You did. By sly innuendo suggesting you understand what my theology does to my temperament.

Have you ever considered that it could be that I am in constant excruciating pain? Or that I have to take very strong medication with horrible side effects just to get out of bed in the morning? Or that I spend all day every day sitting in this chair with my lap top because I am unable to do much more if I plan on being in church on Sunday?

Tom, that takes consideration and empathy... something lacking in today’s society. Perhaps I can empathize because I to have problems getting outa bed do to illnesses I won’t discribe. What assists me in carrying on, if you will allow me is watching my mother fighting to keep a sick child alive (referring to my sister who was a CP) through the night, through the day, through the years ... the nightly vigil with that lone 25 watt bulb burning so as not to wake up the other children. That memory burns in my head.

So perhaps our empathy lies in sharing our wounds from life and damn me if that don’t explain why we can have compassion ... while others don’t.

 

[Covenanter]

The pertinent Scriptures have been posted umpteen times & apparently ignored by the prets, especially when compared to history/reality.

Why are you so concerned with "history/reality" & totally ignore eternal reality:

Eph. 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armour of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.​