I believe we've debunked preterism.

[John of Japan]

Oh, sit down, John. I was primarily responding to Revmitchell.

I always sit down when I do the BB. And you did say "anti-preterist posts," of which I've done a bunch, not "you."

I did not comment on much of what was written in your thread at first because I had too much going on and had little chance to be online. I probably would have agreed with much of what was written.I would have to go back and read it.

Understood. Yet there it was. And the other preterists did not comment much, either.

Don't understand what I meant with John 14? Neither did I comprehend your "purple cow" silliness. If you were as well read in commentaries (I mean a wide range of commentaries) you would have gotten my point. But I am not going to waste any more time on that.

The "purple cow" line is an old one I learned when I was a kid. I thought it spiced things up a bit. Sorry you didn't get it.

As for your John 14 comment, I've translated the verses into two different languages, and yes, I have read commentaries on it, and there is no way in the world that your "sheep stalls" comment had anything to do with John 14.

Here's what I think. I think you mixed up John 10, which is not about the 2nd Coming, with John 14:1-3, which is. Now you are embarrassed about it, and can't bring yourself to admit your error here in public.

Why are you still moaning about my derailing your previous thread? Is this your thread now?

Not my thread now, but relevant. You had ample opportunity to actually comment on the thread, but chose instead to try to derail it three times. I expect that from you on this thread, too.

You put "parousia" as antithetical to Scripture. You well know that it is a biblical term. Found several times on the Bible.

I have done no such thing, and you know it. This is an absolute mischaracterization, a false attack, and disingenuous. I insist on the correct meaning of parousia in every single place it occurs, and once again have translated it into Japanese every single time it occurs. and many times into English. And it is not found "several times" in the Bible, but 24, as you yourself pointed out.

Josephus, while not scripture, gives us our first-hand description of what Christ had prophesied. How can it not be important? While gematria (not numerology, per se) is a valid means of understanding 666 whether or not you accept it. Gematria is not very important otherwise IMO. And I believe there are plenty of other ways to show that Nero was the man meant.

Quit muddying the waters. I have Josephus and consult it often. And yes, gematria is a form of numerology. But both of those things were irrelevant to my thread and you know it. Parousia might have been relevant if you had approached it in a different way, but the way you broached it was not in line with the OP.

By this post, you are proving the OP. Preterism is easily defeated simply by good exegesis, and preterists like you choose to try to sidetrack the discussions rather than answer the points.

 

[John of Japan]

We too take tremendous encouragement in the glorious hope of Jesus coming in glory at the end of time for resurrection & judgment, & establishing a glorious new heaven & new earth, the home of righteousness.

Amen.

John, do you believe all the blessings of Jesus' second coming will only be fully realised after the millennium? What do you actually believe & teach?

Are you kidding me? I'm premil and always have been. You are describing a postmil position.

I believe the present Gospel age is the millennium, and that Jesus will come in glory to do as he promised:

That makes you postmil, and partial preterist, not full like asterisktom.

 

[John of Japan]

Typical,

The papists rise came much later than the Polycarp and Ignatius who BOTH knew eye witnesses to Christ.

Correct. I teach my church history and missions history students that the first 3 centuries were full of revival and church planting and the spread of the Gospel. How else could the entire Middle East and much of Europe have become Christian by the time of the Council of Nicea in AD 325!

Polycarp and Ignatius were both great men of God, fully orthodox, and not preterist.

 

[Covenanter]

Right, those the closest to the actual source of the NT got perverted before they were martyred.

Yet we, whole look from 2000 years back, know better then they?

Do you not see the humor in that persuasion?

Of course! But we have the complete Scriptures.

 

[Covenanter]

Amen.

Are you kidding me? I'm premil and always have been. You are describing a postmil position.

That makes you postmil, and partial preterist, not full like asterisktom.

​

​

You're premil. I've read and heard many things about the second coming, tribulation, millennium , Israel, Ezekiel's temple, saints ruling over subdued sinners, etc, etc.

What do you believe?

 

[John of Japan]

You're premil. I've read and heard many things about the second coming, tribulation, Israel, Ezekiel's temple, saints ruling over subdued sinners, etc, etc.

What do you believe?

I'm dispensational, premil and pretrib Other than that, are you asking about all of those subjects?

 

[Covenanter]

I'm dispensational, premil and pretrib Other than that, are you asking about all of those subjects?

Amil, & P-Preterist believe that Jesus comes in glory for resurrection, judgment & the NH&NE.

The premil has 1,000 years of ?? dispensation ?? after the second coming & before the NH&NE.
The pretrib has the tribulation after the second coming. Where are the believers? Do unresurrected people suffer the trib? Or when are the unregenerate raised for judgment?
Is there a millennium temple? Are Israel & the Church separate? Is Israel the wife of Jehovah & the Church the bride of Christ?

People who advocate a future millennium seem very confused, & usually very dogmatic. As you are very clear on what you believe, & presumably teach, what do you believe & teach?

You must have a basic outline of the future - please tell us.

===============
Incidentally my understanding of post-mil is of a thousand years of Gospel peace & progress before the second coming. I do not believe that. I hold that the present age is the millennium - amil. It may be the difference between UK & US theology.

 

[TCassidy]

We too take tremendous encouragement in the glorious hope of Jesus coming in glory at the end of time for resurrection & judgment, & establishing a glorious new heaven & new earth, the home of righteousness.

The 3rd coming?

Further we take encouragement from the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecies of his coming to judge the generation that rejected him & so we can be assured of his present invisible Kingdom as King of kings & LORD of lords.

The 2nd coming?

How many more are there?

 

[agedman]

Of course! But we have the complete Scriptures.

Are you saying they did not?

Who were those entrusted with the writings and preserved them for centuries?

Your scriptures are no more or less “complete” then they had.

Chances are they, by virtue of being eyewitnesses of the eyewitnesses of Christ and the Apostles had even a purer and perhaps less biased, by centuries of excess and perversion, understanding.

Therefore, it seems important to see and consider the thinking of those, and as agreement is found with Scriptures (as throughout Ploycarp’s letters are found) consider their statements factually reflect their teaching.

 

[Covenanter]

The 3rd coming?

The 2nd coming?

How many more are there?

One final coming, commonly called the second coming.

Your nit-picking is not helpful to a serious theological discussion.

It is usual to refer to - "Jesus coming in glory at the end of time for resurrection & judgment, & establishing a glorious new heaven & new earth, the home of righteousness." as the second coming, or the return. The first coming was his incarnation.

We read of God "coming" for judgment or blessing & coming to receive us at death. (John 14) Specifically he came as prophesied to judge this generation.

 

[agedman]

One final coming, commonly called the second coming.

Your nit-picking is not helpful to a serious theological discussion.

It is usual to refer to - "Jesus coming in glory at the end of time for resurrection & judgment, & establishing a glorious new heaven & new earth, the home of righteousness." as the second coming, or the return. The first coming was his incarnation.

We read of God "coming" for judgment or blessing & coming to receive us at death. (John 14) Specifically he came as prophesied to judge this generation.

Jesus states in John 12 that He DID NOT come to judge the world.

That happens at the second coming and millennial reign.

Acts 17 he will come to judge the world, 1 Corinthians 6 believer’s judge the world WITH Him.

 

[TCassidy]

Your nit-picking is not helpful to a serious theological discussion.

So you have finally abandoned your foolish theory that Jesus returned in 70AD? You now realize His second advent is yet future?

I am gratified to see my "nit-picking" has helped you see the truth!

Well, well. We are making progress!

 

[Covenanter]

Specifically he came as prophesied to judge this generation.

So you have finally abandoned your foolish theory that Jesus returned in 70AD? You now realize His second advent is yet future?

I am gratified to see my "nit-picking" has helped you see the truth!

Well, well. We are making progress!

All you are showing is your failure to understand simple English.

 

[prophecy70]

Preterism is easily defeated simply by good exegesis

Well now, everyone just stop debating its settled.

And a third temple, a return to animal sacrifices, a rapture, and a one man world dictator is not simply defeated?


Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80 Justin defended the position of Historic Premillennialism, but added that "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" (ANF, vol. 1, p. 239).

Imagine that, I wonder why he didn't say, with simple exegesis, all other views are defeated.

 

[prophecy70]

I am gratified to see my "nit-picking" has helped you see the truth!

I know its really helped me...to understand what your theology does to ones temperament

 

[TCassidy]

I know its really helped me...to understand what your theology does to ones temperament

Perhaps you could take the time to learn some things about me before condemning me. Just a thought.

 

[TCassidy]

All you are showing is your failure to understand simple English.

So which is it? Is the Second Advent past or yet future?

 

[agedman]

Well now, everyone just stop debating its settled.

And a third temple, a return to animal sacrifices, a rapture, and a one man world dictator is not simply defeated?


Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80 Justin defended the position of Historic Premillennialism, but added that "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" (ANF, vol. 1, p. 239).

Imagine that, I wonder why he didn't say, with simple exegesis, all other views are defeated.

Well at least your post documents that the position of the early church was premillennial.

It is important to note that though there is no documentation that I can recall of Justin Martyr being schooled by the Apostle John, his friend, Polycarp, was, and was also premillennial.

 

[prophecy70]

Perhaps you could take the time to learn some things about me before condemning me. Just a thought.

Who condemned you? All I said is I understand now, anything past that is speculation.

I have learned quite a bit, things that you say are untrue. So you will never see it as "learning"

 

[prophecy70]

Polycarp, was, and was also premillennial.

What did Polycarp say that supports premillennialism?