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Is God Sovereign?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Nov 25, 2017.

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  1. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Absolutely. And even in this scripture God makes an appeal to the will of men.
    God's plan and purpose cannot be changed and WILL come to pass. Part of that plan an purpose was to give mankind the ability and freedom to CHOOSE LIFE. And that life is in His Son.

    By "sovereignty" the "reformed" mean that God controls everything, including man's will, like a cosmic puppeteer.
     
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  2. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    God gave mankind the ability to make a choice from options it has never heard of? How have you arrived at that conclusion?
     
  3. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Not sure what you mean.
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This verse shows that mere Sovereignty is lacking in the description of God's power.

    Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    If God were sovereign, (per the Calvinist definition) we would have to wrestle God. Since everything has been predetermined.

    Saying God is Sovereign as in the Calvinist definition is blaming God for the sin in the world making God responsible for sin if indeed everything is predetermined as Calvinism claims.

    Sheepwhisperer has made an excellent point God is all powerful not Sovereign. All powerful means He is above Sovereignty. Being all powerful God does as He wishes with no restraint. Not even the Calvinism definition restrains Him or places Him in a box which forces God to create sin leaving the majority of man with out hope.
    MB.
     
  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    You said: "Part of that plan an purpose was to give mankind the ability and freedom to CHOOSE LIFE."

    What do you mean by that?
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I've never heard your question before, so apparently i don't have the ability to make a choice from options I never heard of.

    Or..........

    Maybe the human being is far more advanced then expected. Jesus Christ is 100% Human. We are all of same capacity.

    Jesus wasn't a human with CHEAT CODES.


    The Image of God will always be depreciated in power from your perspective. It will always be guaranteed weaker and lower.

    God doesn't even have the capacity of teaching someone to tie their own shoes let alone make choices.


    God doesn't want you to sin ever again, His command is not a joke. Sincerely does not want you to sin. Would rather see the entire world on fire then for you to sin.

    So you are never going to sin again right? Or do you think you have the power to frustrate God's very sincere desire?
     
  7. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    God places the conviction before every man, via the Holy Ghost, as "sin, righteousness, and judgment".
    The "sin and judgment" part will put you in Hell. The "righteousness" part is only in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is "Life".
    . Man doesn't initiate this: it is God's design, God's making. But we have been given the freedom by Almighty God to accept His righteous demand and invitation or reject it. The principle is the same throughout the Bible
    "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" Deuteronomy 30:19
     
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Something you may not know is that God's word describes Christians as they already are because of the righteousness of Christ. John wrote.
    1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    Not to mention who are you to Judge and attempt to place Guilt on God's people. Think it over carefully.
    MB
     
  9. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    1) What exactly does that mean? Please unpack this for me.
    2) Are you saying the God saves apart from Christ?
    3) Are you saying that God saves apart from His Holy Word?
    4) Are you saying that God saves apart from The gospel?
     
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    [
    This is because it isn't found in scripture. Therefore it's created by man. You see the word Sovereignty isn't found in scripture. The Bible describes God as all powerful. The word sovereignty in Calvinism is redefined to mean what it clearly does not mean. They define Sovereign as control of everything good and evil combined. This makes God into a two faced God who makes men sin and then punishing man for it.
    MB
     
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  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Neither is the word "bible" found in the bible.

    Yes, that is what Sovereign means.

    Oh, really? And what is that?

    What do you mean by "in control?" Do you mean He allows some things that He does not approve of but allows it to teach us, or do you mean there are some things He just can't control?

    God does not make man sin. But God does allow you to CHOOSE to sin.
     
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  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    It makes no difference as to the "why" of our God who allows evil.

    He does, so live with it.

    Proverbs 3
    5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
    7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
    8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

    HankD
     
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  13. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Sure. God can only run a Calvinist System. He doesn't have the intelligence or Capacity to do it any other way.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    There is always time to repent. As the Catholics taught me, say a good act of contrition.
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Yes, father.
     
  16. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    In the name of the Father, the Son and the HG... say a rosary & grovel on the floor like a little prepubescent boy and don’t tell your parents. :Wink
     
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  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    HEY!

    Actually our parish priest in East Boston was normal, he was a womanizer.

    HankD
     
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  18. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    You former Catholic and Catholic brethren don't beat yourself up so much all denomination have them and worse... He who is without sin, cast the first stone... Brother Glen:)
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    right I understand the meaning of "ricochet!".

    HankD
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Depends who was on the receiving end Glen.

    Beatings with sticks,belts, hands. Heads shoved into blackboards and other humiliations I won’t talk about . Add these to lesbian nuns and priests who are predators or religious fanatics and maybe you’d understand that I would cast a stone in order to .... I’m just saying... it was horrible! You lived each day in fear.
     
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