Atonement

Why on earth would I disagree with that? Has there been someone that has disagreed with that?

22 For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22

23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Acts 2

18 But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. Acts 3

28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4

42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10

31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17

20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, 1 Pet 1

 

Paul that he was smitten of God, as did isaiah.

 

God executed judgement on His law being broken by us as sinners upon the Cross on jesus.

 

That's actually two verses but you will see below that the whole teaching of the N.T. is that we have died with Christ.

JonC,
The point is that we do these things, not in order to be saved or to avoid losing our salvation, but because we are saved!!
'I have been crucified [past tense again] with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me' (Galatians 2:20; cf. also Galatians 5:24).

Look, if you are trying to crucify yourself, firstly you will never do it for the excellent reason that it's happened already, and secondly you are caught up in the Wesleyan holiness movement and need a good solid dose of J.C. Ryle's book, Holiness. When Blind Bartimaeus received his sight, he 'followed Jesus on the road [to Jerusalem]' not in order to be healed, nor in order not to lose his healing again, but because he was healed. Likewise in Romans 6 which you quoted, it is because we have died to sin that we don't let it reign in our mortal bodies, not so that we can die to sin. Otherwise we are simply placing ourselves under law again. Paul says, 'For sin shall not be master over you [not 'must not' or 'should not'], for you are not under law but under grace.'

We have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. There is no more to do; no more that we possibly can do; nevertheless, 'everyone who has this [sure and certain] hope in him purifies himself.....' Why? In order to be saved? No! Ten thousand times no! Because we are saved, and have been born again by the Holy Spirit and we delight to do God's will, which is our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

But the point of all this is that Christ's atonement is absolutely complete. 'He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to Him.' 'There is now therefore condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.' When I stand in judgement on that Last day, and God the Father turns to the Son and says, "What about this one?" The Lord Jesus will simply lift up His nail-scarred hands, and the Father will say, "Yes, just so. In you go, young Marprelate!"

'Not what these hands have done
Can save this guilty soul;
Not what this toiling flesh has borne
Can make my spirit whole.

The work alone, O Christ,
Can ease this weigt of sin;
Thy blood alone, O Lamb of God
Can give me peace within.

I bless the Christ of God,
I rest on love divine,
And with unfaltering lip and heart
I call this Saviour mine.' [Horatius Bonar]

 

I do not find this reality in Scripture. Can you help me understand why you have described such a scene? This sounds like a "courtroom exchange". I thought all of our "legal issues" were handled on the Cross? Thanks in advance!

 

I am a bit confused in your presentation.

From what I have read of JonC nothing in this post would be remarkably different than his statements including the OP.

What seems to stick in some peoples teeth on this thread is the presentation that Christ was not punished by God and did not suffer God's wrath being poured out, but took upon Himself (as only GOD could) that necessary for forgiveness of sin and the opportunity reconciliation in belief.

The difficulty that I have with that presenting some retribution thinking as part of the PST is that such retribution then must have an end. That Christ fulfilled the demands of God's wrath.
Here are some of the basic (roughly written) issues of that thinking:

1) The Scriptures indicate that final wrath of God, the lake of fire, has no end for those who do not believe. This presents an obvious problem to those who hold to retribution in the PST.

• If it is vital to those who hold that Christ suffered at the hands of God to satisfy God's wrath, then they must also agree that such wrath was satisfied, and that all wrathful demands by God for sin can be satisfied by suffering.

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• Therefore, it must be concluded that humankind can outside of the Christ be redeemed by meeting the statements of the Law.

• That should a person suffer the wrath of God by violation of the law, then it follows that after such suffering of an indeterminate length there is redemption. Therefore the purgatorial aspects as presented by the RCC are truthful, and that eventually the Lake of Fire will be empty.

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2) There is also the matter of the extinguishable wrath of God. The retribution thinking of the PST endorsement that Christ suffered because of the wrath of God poured out upon the Son for sin, makes it impossible for such wrath to extinguish.

• The cycle of continuing wrath for sin would never have ended even throughout eternity - the Son would remain in the lake of fire. For the Scriptures state that the Son took on Sin- became sin. There is never a time stated in Scriptures that the Son's sin were ever transferred.

• The result would have been that Christ remained condemned in the lake of fire to continually pay the wrath of sin, and therefore all sin of all time would then certainly result in the automatic redemption of all - even the enemies of Christ.

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3) Christ could not take on such wrath of God without there being evidence of it in the Scriptures - there is none.
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Rather, the presentation of the Scriptures was that humankind thought that they were appointed by God to do harm to the Son, that it was approved and pleased God to allow humankind to provide such torture and desire His death. He allowed them to think that is what they considered the law demanded. "WE have a law, and by that law He ought to die" what the statement at the judgement.

It is also what Paul consider correct when he as Saul was chasing down believers.

 

They are. I was trying to make an illustration and lighten things up at the same time.
Obviously I failed.

 

I seem to remember Isaiah stating, 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.'

 

I'm running out of energy from constantly repeating myself. What I posted above: 'It pleased the LORD to bruise Him.' Also, 'Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."' What Deuteronomy 21:23 says is, 'He who is hanged [on a tree, cf. v.22] is accursed of God.' Christ hung on a tree (1 Peter 2:24); therefore Christ was accursed of God FOR US.

It was to save us that He willingly went to the cross and suffered the curse of God. Instead of denying it, you should be glorying in the amazing grace of God who did not withhold His Son but delivered Him up for us all, and in the wondrous goodness of Christ who willingly submitted to such a dreadful ordeal.

 

Looking at posts #84 and #90 I rather thought it was the issue.

 

ahhh...I gotcha....it's all good my brother!

 

I totally agree...probably one of the worst (false) pictures Christendom paints concerning our eternal realities.

I do have a disdain for misrepresentations of Biblical Truth, especially ones that diminish the finished work of our Lord Jesus. There is no extra courtroom scene, conversations with Peter, stop at the pearly gates, etc. Etc.

If we are Christ's, we enter STRAIGHT into His presence. GLORY! (as the old ministers used to say)