Atonement

[JonC]

So God condemned the Christ without making Him sin (contra 2 Corinthians 5:21) and had Him done to death at second hand. I don't see how that avoids Him condemning the righteous.

You misunderstand. I am not saying God convicted the Just. You are.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe that God predetermined that Christ would die at the hands of godless men, so we may disagree on that point.

Why on earth would I disagree with that? Has there been someone that has disagreed with that?

22 For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22

23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Acts 2

18 But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. Acts 3

28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4

42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10

31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17

20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, 1 Pet 1

 

[JonC]

Why on earth would I disagree with that? Has there been someone that has disagreed with that?

22 For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been determined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! Lu 22

23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Acts 2

18 But the things which God foreshowed by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ should suffer, he thus fulfilled. Acts 3

28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass. Acts 4

42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 10

31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17

20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake, 1 Pet 1

Not on this thread. But some have confused the King who sent His Son with the Jews who killed Him.

I mistook your comment to be along the line of another. Sorry. It appears we agree.

 

[Yeshua1]

Scripture says men esteemed Him as smitten by God.

Paul that he was smitten of God, as did isaiah.

 

[Yeshua1]

You misunderstand. I am not saying God convicted the Just. You are.

God executed judgement on His law being broken by us as sinners upon the Cross on jesus.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth

Again, brother, your "mastery" of the Scripture by taking one verse out to "prove" your point has left you empty handed. Here is the fuller context:

Romans 6:1-14 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Until one understands that following Christ means denying ones self and taking up their cross daily it is impossible that they do so. Until one believes they must, as John Owen put it, "be killing sin" in their lives, they simply will not. One of the most horrible side effects of your theory is this "easy believism" in a salvation that expects absolutely nothing from the saved.

You cannot simply take one verse out of context (as you did with both Romans 6 and 2 Timothy)

That's actually two verses but you will see below that the whole teaching of the N.T. is that we have died with Christ.

and twist it into your theory. You do this on with the idea that anything you say can be viewed as "implied" in Scripture but God's Word does not work that way. It is not as subjective as you think. Read FROM the Bible, not into it.

JonC,
The point is that we do these things, not in order to be saved or to avoid losing our salvation, but because we are saved!!
'I have been crucified [past tense again] with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me' (Galatians 2:20; cf. also Galatians 5:24).

Look, if you are trying to crucify yourself, firstly you will never do it for the excellent reason that it's happened already, and secondly you are caught up in the Wesleyan holiness movement and need a good solid dose of J.C. Ryle's book, Holiness. When Blind Bartimaeus received his sight, he 'followed Jesus on the road [to Jerusalem]' not in order to be healed, nor in order not to lose his healing again, but because he was healed. Likewise in Romans 6 which you quoted, it is because we have died to sin that we don't let it reign in our mortal bodies, not so that we can die to sin. Otherwise we are simply placing ourselves under law again. Paul says, 'For sin shall not be master over you [not 'must not' or 'should not'], for you are not under law but under grace.'

We have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. There is no more to do; no more that we possibly can do; nevertheless, 'everyone who has this [sure and certain] hope in him purifies himself.....' Why? In order to be saved? No! Ten thousand times no! Because we are saved, and have been born again by the Holy Spirit and we delight to do God's will, which is our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

But the point of all this is that Christ's atonement is absolutely complete. 'He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to Him.' 'There is now therefore condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.' When I stand in judgement on that Last day, and God the Father turns to the Son and says, "What about this one?" The Lord Jesus will simply lift up His nail-scarred hands, and the Father will say, "Yes, just so. In you go, young Marprelate!"

'Not what these hands have done
Can save this guilty soul;
Not what this toiling flesh has borne
Can make my spirit whole.

The work alone, O Christ,
Can ease this weigt of sin;
Thy blood alone, O Lamb of God
Can give me peace within.

I bless the Christ of God,
I rest on love divine,
And with unfaltering lip and heart
I call this Saviour mine.' [Horatius Bonar]

 

[JonC]

That's actually two verses but you will see below that the whole teaching of the N.T. is that we have died with Christ.

JonC,
The point is that we do these things, not in order to be saved or to avoid losing our salvation, but because we are saved!!
'I have been crucified [past tense again] with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me' (Galatians 2:20; cf. also Galatians 5:24).

Look, if you are trying to crucify yourself, firstly you will never do it for the excellent reason that it's happened already, and secondly you are caught up in the Wesleyan holiness movement and need a good solid dose of J.C. Ryle's book, Holiness. When Blind Bartimaeus received his sight, he 'followed Jesus on the road [to Jerusalem]' not in order to be healed, nor in order not to lose his healing again, but because he was healed. Likewise in Romans 6 which you quoted, it is because we have died to sin that we don't let it reign in our mortal bodies, not so that we can die to sin. Otherwise we are simply placing ourselves under law again. Paul says, 'For sin shall not be master over you [not 'must not' or 'should not'], for you are not under law but under grace.'

We have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. There is no more to do; no more that we possibly can do; nevertheless, 'everyone who has this [sure and certain] hope in him purifies himself.....' Why? In order to be saved? No! Ten thousand times no! Because we are saved, and have been born again by the Holy Spirit and we delight to do God's will, which is our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

But the point of all this is that Christ's atonement is absolutely complete. 'He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to Him.' 'There is now therefore condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.' When I stand in judgement on that Last day, and God the Father turns to the Son and says, "What about this one?" The Lord Jesus will simply lift up His nail-scarred hands, and the Father will say, "Yes, just so. In you go, young Marprelate!"

'Not what these hands have done
Can save this guilty soul;
Not what this toiling flesh has borne
Can make my spirit whole.

The work alone, O Christ,
Can ease this weigt of sin;
Thy blood alone, O Lamb of God
Can give me peace within.

I bless the Christ of God,
I rest on love divine,
And with unfaltering lip and heart
I call this Saviour mine.' [Horatius Bonar]

Repentance itself is dying to our old self. And yes, we don't do things in order to be saved but at the same time we do not live in our old nature.

 

[JonShaff]

When I stand in judgement on that Last day, and God the Father turns to the Son and says, "What about this one?" The Lord Jesus will simply lift up His nail-scarred hands, and the Father will say, "Yes, just so. In you go, young Marprelate!"

I do not find this reality in Scripture. Can you help me understand why you have described such a scene? This sounds like a "courtroom exchange". I thought all of our "legal issues" were handled on the Cross? Thanks in advance!

 

[agedman]

That's actually two verses but you will see below that the whole teaching of the N.T. is that we have died with Christ.

JonC,
The point is that we do these things, not in order to be saved or to avoid losing our salvation, but because we are saved!!
'I have been crucified [past tense again] with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me' (Galatians 2:20; cf. also Galatians 5:24).

Look, if you are trying to crucify yourself, firstly you will never do it for the excellent reason that it's happened already, and secondly you are caught up in the Wesleyan holiness movement and need a good solid dose of J.C. Ryle's book, Holiness. When Blind Bartimaeus received his sight, he 'followed Jesus on the road [to Jerusalem]' not in order to be healed, nor in order not to lose his healing again, but because he was healed. Likewise in Romans 6 which you quoted, it is because we have died to sin that we don't let it reign in our mortal bodies, not so that we can die to sin. Otherwise we are simply placing ourselves under law again. Paul says, 'For sin shall not be master over you [not 'must not' or 'should not'], for you are not under law but under grace.'

We have been saved by grace through faith in Christ. There is no more to do; no more that we possibly can do; nevertheless, 'everyone who has this [sure and certain] hope in him purifies himself.....' Why? In order to be saved? No! Ten thousand times no! Because we are saved, and have been born again by the Holy Spirit and we delight to do God's will, which is our sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

But the point of all this is that Christ's atonement is absolutely complete. 'He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to Him.' 'There is now therefore condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.' When I stand in judgement on that Last day, and God the Father turns to the Son and says, "What about this one?" The Lord Jesus will simply lift up His nail-scarred hands, and the Father will say, "Yes, just so. In you go, young Marprelate!"

'Not what these hands have done
Can save this guilty soul;
Not what this toiling flesh has borne
Can make my spirit whole.

The work alone, O Christ,
Can ease this weigt of sin;
Thy blood alone, O Lamb of God
Can give me peace within.

I bless the Christ of God,
I rest on love divine,
And with unfaltering lip and heart
I call this Saviour mine.' [Horatius Bonar]

I am a bit confused in your presentation.

From what I have read of JonC nothing in this post would be remarkably different than his statements including the OP.

What seems to stick in some peoples teeth on this thread is the presentation that Christ was not punished by God and did not suffer God's wrath being poured out, but took upon Himself (as only GOD could) that necessary for forgiveness of sin and the opportunity reconciliation in belief.

The difficulty that I have with that presenting some retribution thinking as part of the PST is that such retribution then must have an end. That Christ fulfilled the demands of God's wrath.
Here are some of the basic (roughly written) issues of that thinking:

1) The Scriptures indicate that final wrath of God, the lake of fire, has no end for those who do not believe. This presents an obvious problem to those who hold to retribution in the PST.

• If it is vital to those who hold that Christ suffered at the hands of God to satisfy God's wrath, then they must also agree that such wrath was satisfied, and that all wrathful demands by God for sin can be satisfied by suffering.

• Therefore, it must be concluded that humankind can outside of the Christ be redeemed by meeting the statements of the Law.

• That should a person suffer the wrath of God by violation of the law, then it follows that after such suffering of an indeterminate length there is redemption. Therefore the purgatorial aspects as presented by the RCC are truthful, and that eventually the Lake of Fire will be empty.

2) There is also the matter of the extinguishable wrath of God. The retribution thinking of the PST endorsement that Christ suffered because of the wrath of God poured out upon the Son for sin, makes it impossible for such wrath to extinguish.

• The cycle of continuing wrath for sin would never have ended even throughout eternity - the Son would remain in the lake of fire. For the Scriptures state that the Son took on Sin- became sin. There is never a time stated in Scriptures that the Son's sin were ever transferred.

• The result would have been that Christ remained condemned in the lake of fire to continually pay the wrath of sin, and therefore all sin of all time would then certainly result in the automatic redemption of all - even the enemies of Christ.

3) Christ could not take on such wrath of God without there being evidence of it in the Scriptures - there is none.
​

Rather, the presentation of the Scriptures was that humankind thought that they were appointed by God to do harm to the Son, that it was approved and pleased God to allow humankind to provide such torture and desire His death. He allowed them to think that is what they considered the law demanded. "WE have a law, and by that law He ought to die" what the statement at the judgement.

It is also what Paul consider correct when he as Saul was chasing down believers.

 

[JonC]

Paul that he was smitten of God, as did isaiah.

I remember Isaiah stating "Yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted." Which passage are you speaking of?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I do not find this reality in Scripture. Can you help me understand why you have described such a scene? This sounds like a "courtroom exchange". I thought all of our "legal issues" were handled on the Cross? Thanks in advance!

They are. I was trying to make an illustration and lighten things up at the same time.
Obviously I failed.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I remember Isaiah stating "Yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted." Which passage are you speaking of?

I seem to remember Isaiah stating, 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.'

 

[JonC]

I seem to remember Isaiah stating, 'Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief.'

Yes. This is true. Or, as Peter's sermon put it, it was by God's predetermined plan that Christ suffered and died at the hands of godless me. God offered His Son as a propitiation.

But this wasn't the question, now, was it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What seems to stick in some peoples teeth on this thread is the presentation that Christ was not punished by God and did not suffer God's wrath being poured out, but took upon Himself (as only GOD could) that necessary for forgiveness of sin and the opportunity reconciliation in belief.

I'm running out of energy from constantly repeating myself. What I posted above: 'It pleased the LORD to bruise Him.' Also, 'Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree."' What Deuteronomy 21:23 says is, 'He who is hanged [on a tree, cf. v.22] is accursed of God.' Christ hung on a tree (1 Peter 2:24); therefore Christ was accursed of God FOR US.

It was to save us that He willingly went to the cross and suffered the curse of God. Instead of denying it, you should be glorying in the amazing grace of God who did not withhold His Son but delivered Him up for us all, and in the wondrous goodness of Christ who willingly submitted to such a dreadful ordeal.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes. This is true. Or, as Peter's sermon put it, it was by God's predetermined plan that Christ suffered and died at the hands of godless me. God offered His Son as a propitiation.

But this wasn't the question, now, was it.

Looking at posts #84 and #90 I rather thought it was the issue.

 

[JonC]

Looking at posts #84 and #90 I rather thought it was the issue.

No. I believe it pleases God to crush him. It was God's predetermined plan.

I do not believe He was stricken by God (Isaiah actually indicates the truth was the opposite- that WE esteemed Him stricken by God but something entirely different was going on). I do not believe Jesus was cursed by God but that He became a curse for us.

 

[JonC]

I'm running out of energy from constantly repeating myself.

Yea....It's wearing on us too (kidding....well....sorta)

 

[JonShaff]

They are. I was trying to make an illustration and lighten things up at the same time.
Obviously I failed.

ahhh...I gotcha....it's all good my brother!

 

[JonC]

ahhh...I gotcha....it's all good my brother!

It was an illustration, but it is an illustration on a faulty premise.

 

[JonShaff]

It was an illustration, but it is an illustration on a faulty premise.

I totally agree...probably one of the worst (false) pictures Christendom paints concerning our eternal realities.

I do have a disdain for misrepresentations of Biblical Truth, especially ones that diminish the finished work of our Lord Jesus. There is no extra courtroom scene, conversations with Peter, stop at the pearly gates, etc. Etc.

If we are Christ's, we enter STRAIGHT into His presence. GLORY! (as the old ministers used to say)