God Loved the World (fallen mankind) in this way...

So you've been made righteous, have you, Van? Sinless perfection? Or do you believe in the Roman catholic doctrine of imparted (as opposed to 'imputed') righteousness?
You were wrong on post #77 and you're wrong here. Look at the context.

Romans 5:18. 'Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.'

To 'justify' is to declare righteous (c.f. Proverbs 17:15; Isaiah 5:23 etc.).

Romans 5:19. 'For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be [future tense] made righteous.' Whilst the Holy Spirit leads Christians in the paths of righteousness, and causes them increasingly to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, we shall not be 'made righteous' until we leave behind this old sinful body at death or at the coming of the Lord Jesus.

 

he chooses us to salvation before we were even born!

 

Not sure if you are saying this is true or not.

You did ask...

Not sure if you are trying to say men are made righteous, rather than declared righteous.

That our righteousness is declared, rather than practical (from an eternal perspective, meaning, we still fall short of the glory of God even after saved in the temporal) would seem to be fairly basic.


God bless.

 

But do we equate justification which is based on our actions (i.e., Abraham's faith and works) with being justified through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

I think this is the major stumblingblock for most, because they do not distinguish the difference.

We must distinguish between the righteousness that is temporal, and applies to man's existence in this realm, and the righteousness which is of God, and that imputed to man based on what Christ did.


God bless.

 

Abraham was saved when he believed God's promise of a Seed (John 8:56). His faith led him to works (Hebrews 11:8), but the faith came first (Romans 4:1-5).

Would you care to expand on this a little, or point me to where you have already done so?
We all know non-Christian people who have done good deeds, lived outwardly moral lives etc., but if they are saved by such deeds then Christianity is false and we should stop preaching it at once. However, we are told that 'Those who are in the flesh cannot please God'

Thank you. You too.

 

Agreed, from an eternal perspective in relation to his eternal destiny.

But, he was not eternally redeemed and would not be until Christ paid his sin debt (the death due Abraham for his sin).

He was justified, and while that equates to being "saved" from an eternal perspective," it should not be equated to being saved through Christ. Or, as I mentioned, being justified through Christ.

He was not reconciled to God, though called a friend of God, just as David was not, though said to have the heart of God. God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself, showing that the world was still in need of reconciliation.

Agreed.

But before his faith was...

...the intervention of God.

Be glad to, and I'll start with the referenced Scripture:


James 2:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?


Now we all know that the context is not speaking from an eternal perspective, for the context refers to man's relationship to each other, so here Abraham is justified before other men by his works, not that he was saved eternally because he obeyed God's command to offer up Isaac. So his justification is from a temporal perspective, rather than from an eternal. It is what Abraham has done, not what Christ will do for him by which he is justified by God.

This one is going to be a little harder to consider:


Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?


Paul defines the context from the beginning...as pertaining to the flesh, or in other worlds, this is a temporal context, not an eternal context.


2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


As mentioned before, Abraham's justification relates to his relationship to other men.


3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


And I will offer but one question: do we not see that again Abraham is justified...by something he has done?

Rather than what Christ has done for him?

Now consider:


Romans 3:23-26
King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


The Redemption Christ wrought on the Cross and in the Resurrection stands apart from all other redemptive events in Scripture. It stands alone and apart from all atonement, justification, and remission of sins we see recorded. The righteousness attributed to Abraham through his belief and obedience should be, in my view, distinguished from the justification received by those who have believed on the name of Jesus Christ (and specifically that He died in our stead and is capable of atoning for our sins).

This knowledge was not known to Old Testament Saints, thus they were not justified through the redemption which is in Jesus Christ.

Okay, that is a short assertion of what I am saying.

Your thoughts?

No-one is "saved" from an eternal perspective (eternally redeemed) apart from faith in Jesus Christ. I have never intimated that anyone at any time can be saved through works, whether they be "good deeds" or the works of the Law.

But, we distinguish this Age, now that the Gospel Mystery is revealed to men, as different from those dispensations which preceded it. Just as it says above, "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness," whereas under Law...

...whose righteousness would have been the model?

You guessed it...Abraham. And he was.

And that is specific to this Age, for...

Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?




Hope that clarifies my question.


God bless.

 

Perhaps you place time and space as shackles upon God who made them for human accountability and His own.

God did not offer what was or might happen in the future, but what was already.

Therefore, before the world ever was, Christ was already presented as the light.

Abraham and the rest did not have to wait for the Cross, for such was not a part of their own understanding. The OT revelations of the cross were given over centuries long after Abraham lived.

As such, Abraham in no manner was justified by works, but by promise of God.

That the justification of Abraham resulted in works is that evidence (sign) that the promise of God was sure and certain.

 

Not at all, I simply stick with what Scripture teaches and try to stay away from the traditional teachings many have embraced, such as the teaching that the benefits of the Cross were applied before it happened.

I will start with one passage that you are free to show me my error in, if you do not feel it denies that traditional teaching:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


I take that back, I will give two, and continue the response and keep this separate. Above we see that the Old Testament died still in debt to the penalty of sin, and in need of Eternal Redemption. The Sacrifice of Christ, contrasted to what the Writer often contrasts His Offering with (the blood of bulls and goats /the sacrifices of the Law) redeemed the transgressions which were under the (the Covenant of) Law.

Here is the second:


Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


This passage as well shows that Redemption began when Christ came. John's testimony agrees with this:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Men were not reconciled to God until "God was in Christ...reconciling the world unto Himself."

So it is not I that places time and space as shackles, it is the Word of God that does so. To disagree with that testimony is to insert into Scripture that which is not there. And nowhere does it say that the Old Testament Saints received Atonement prior to the Cross.


Continued...

 

Great, now show me the Scripture that supports that, and we'll take it from there.

Actually, the Son of God was presented as that Light.

Christ was born in Israel some 2,000 years ago, and is distinct in time and place as to the origin of the Body He (the Son of God) took upon HImself.

In point of fact they did, along with many in Israel:


Luke 2:36-38
King James Version (KJV)

36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;

37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.


Those of Israel who have not "received Him" will one day, on a National basis, be redeemed as well:


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


The Covenant in view is the New Covenant, and it always amazes me that people impose remission of sins beyond the temporal element it was. Remission of sins in completion (God taking away sins, meaning the penalty, v.27) was the Promise of God, which sinners did not receive until Christ died on the Cross.

Here is that promise again:


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The offering up of sacrifice for the atonement of sin had to continue until...

...Christ died in the stead of the sinner, rather than an animal.

And the last sacrifice for sins Abraham would have had available to him before he died would have been a sacrifice which could not take away sins.


Continued...

 

7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

How could names be written before the crucifixion?

Because the Crucifixion that took place in HUMAN time and space was not contained and confined to time and space from God’s perspective.

No names could be written, if redemption was not already factual from the Father's perspective.

 

You are absolutely correct, because the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed to men in past Ages:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


I include v.6 to point out that while the context centers on Gentile Inclusion, that is not the sum of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Note in v.5 that it is all inclusive (as to who it was not revealed to) in that it was not revealed to the sons of men (which means no man) in past Ages.

This too is true, however, understanding was not given men in past Ages.

And it is only through New Testament revelation that you and I can understand, and see the Cross in the Old Testament. So yes, the Gospel of Christ is found in the Old Testament, but no, understanding of it was not yet given. Not even to those who prophesied of Christ:


1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


It is the "Spirit sent down from Heaven" Who reveals the Gospel to the hearts of men. That is, the Comforter promised by the Father and the Son:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is not an "empowering," it is the process of men and women being immersed into God. The disciples had been empowered by the Holy Ghost (filled) in order to preach the Kingdom Gospel, heal, and cast out demons, but they would not undergo that which John prophesied of until after Christ returned to Heaven (John 16:7-9).

Christ baptizes men with the Holy Ghost which is equivalent to men being placed in Him, and He in them.

This is what Christ is referring to when He state "...which...ye have heard of Me." That which they heard can be found in John 14, as well as in 15-16 (and other places, but John 14 is the most detailed).

Then James is in error?


James 2:21-24
King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


As I mentioned before, Abraham was indeed justified by works, but, the context is not a context of Eternal Redemption, it is a context that is temporal, and speaks of man's relationship to each other. Lot is said to be justified, and its hard to find someone less easy to like in Scripture, if you ask me. But, he believed and obeyed God on at least one occasion, lol, and is declared just.

Praise God for His grace towards sinners.

Excuse me?

James is pretty clear: Abraham was justified by his works and not by faith only.

It is what context we put it in that causes all the confusion for people.


God bless.

 

Its very simple, God is Omniscient.

However, your proof text stands a little criticism, because you are not considering that all men are written in the Book of Life.

Before you object, ask yourself, "Doesn't one have to be in there in order to be blotted out?"

One passage:


Psalm 69:18-28
King James Version (KJV)

18 Draw nigh unto my soul, and redeem it: deliver me because of mine enemies.

19 Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee.

20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.

21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.


In view is the enemies of Christ.

And they are in the Book of Life.

Also an interesting subject, thanks.


God bless.

 

See there is never a time when one is added,

Nor, even “blotted out” but is only suggested by the psalmist who had no authority over either adding or taking out.

 

On the contrary, it is not just a "suggestion" of the Psalmist, but something that will happen:


Exodus 32:32-34
King James Version (KJV)

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Revelation 22:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Unless one overcomes (defined by John in 1 John 5:1-5):


Revelation 3
King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


God bless.

 

Again, each of these does not show a name actually removed.

Exodus asking to be blotted is not actually being blotted, it was an expression of concern, not of consequence.

Revelation 22 is not removing salvation but a statement concerning the blessings of that salvation.

Romans 8 would stand in violation of this Revelation verse without such consideration.

 

Correct, but explicitly teaches names will be removed.

Read it again:

Revelation 22:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I'd be glad to know how it is you view someone having "their part being taken out of the Book of Life."

Read it again:


Exodus 32:32-34
King James Version (KJV)

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


WHile I see this as first and foremost, in that day, as a reference to physical life being taken, that does not mean, with the greater Counsel of God's Word...that it does not have application to men being blotted out of the Book of Life itself.

Friend, if a man does not have life, they are not saved. To be removed from the Book of Life, in every instance, refers to death. And the context here is unquestionably Eternal.

You'd have to be a little more specific, lol, there quite a bit covered in Romans 8.

And I will clarify my view, because I think you may be misunderstanding it: all men are in the Book of Life, so it does not suggest believers will lose their salvation. Men are blotted out due to sin.

Historically a "book of life" recorded those living in a city, so in a general sense being in the book of life means one is alive. All men will be recorded in God's Book of the Living, because it will record all who have ever lived. The goal is to...remain in that book. And we can do that when we are made alive, as Christ taught, never to perish.


God bless.

 

I have but a short time, so will respond to the question concerning the book of life.

The book may be perceived in two ways. One is a list of names. The order is a list of names and an encyclopedic account of the person.

By removing the “portion,” it is not the removal of name, but of accounts and therefore basis for rewards.

Did not Paul state as much that such believers are given over that their bodies are destroyed, but souls saved?

Again, Romans 8 is a statement that bottling out cannot occur for the believer.

 

Who on here believes, that one, let's say, Attila the Hun, can be declared righteous because Jesus of Nazareth died for the sin of the world and was raised from the dead by God the Father?

Who on here believes, one and or Attila the Hun, has to furnish some type of faith in order to be made righteous?

I believe in, the faith of Abraham that was to come. The only son died and the only son was raised from the dead in order that the nations could be blessed with blessed Abraham by being declared righteous by that faith, Gal 3, Abraham who was called by God for that purpose.

was to come. Gal 3:23-25 Hebrews 11:17-19 Abraham saw, the day of Christ, in offering his only begotten, knowing God had promised in his only begotten the nations would be blessed, God would raise His only begotten from the dead, In the figure of the sacrifice of Isaac he saw Christ, raised from the dead.

The death and resurrection of Jesus was, the faith, of Abraham.

We have no part in our salvation. It is all of God the Father through the Son of God.

If we have ever told a lie we are guilty of murder ect, we all need to be born again.