The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Please read these texts together, what do you see [ignore for a moment the chapter division]?

Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 KJB - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 KJB - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 KJB - And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.​

While Revelation 21:1 KJB states that in the New Heaven and New Earth there will be no more "sea" [water, the vast chasm of] as such we have now [due to the flood of Noah], with restless waves, separating friends and loved ones, but instead broad rivers, etc, as per:

Isaiah 33:14 KJB - The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Isaiah 33:15 KJB - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Isaiah 33:16 KJB - He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

Isaiah 33:17 KJB - Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Isaiah 33:18 KJB - Thine heart shall meditate terror. Where is the scribe? where is the receiver? where is he that counted the towers?

Isaiah 33:19 KJB - Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

Isaiah 33:20 KJB - Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

Isaiah 33:21 KJB - But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.

[see also Ezekiel 47:1-6 KJB]​

Isaiah 33:22 KJB - For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.

Isaiah 33:23 KJB - Thy tacklings are loosed; they could not well strengthen their mast, they could not spread the sail: then is the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.

Isaiah 33:24 KJB - And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.​

The text also reveals that the "lake of fire", even the fiery "sea" will have passed away also, for it was upon this old earth, look again [ignore the chapter break for a moment, just read it straight through]:

Revelation 20:14 KJB - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 KJB - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

In scripture, a "Sea" = "Lake" [whether of water, fire, etc]:

Luke 5:1 - "the lake of Gennesaret" [see "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11 KJB], [see also "Chinnereth" [Deuteronomy 3:17; Joshua 19:35 KJB]] or "sea of Chinneroth" [Joshua 12:3 KJB], or "of Gennesaret" [Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53 KJB]; Matthew 8:27; Mark 4:39,41 KJB uses the word "sea" and John 6:1 says, "sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias".

The very word "lake" in the Koine Greek in Revelation 20:14,15 is λιμνην [limnen].​

G3041 [only used in the Koine Greek of the NT, I didn't find it in the (so-called) LXX either]

λίμνη limnē

Total KJB Occurrences: 10

lake, 10

Luke 5:1-2 (2), 8:22-23 (2),33;

Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15 (2), 21:8
​

See also the alternate word for "sea":

G2281 [its also in the (so-called) LXX, in the very places of the "sea of Chinnereth" [Numbers 34:11,12 (so-called) [LXX], etc]

θάλασσα thalassa

Total KJB Occurrences: 95

sea, 93

Mat_4:15, Mat_4:18 (2), Mat_8:24, Mat_8:26-27 (2), Mat_8:32, Mat_13:1, Mat_13:47, Mat_14:24-26 (3), Mat_15:29, Mat_17:27, Mat_18:6, Mat_21:21, Mar_1:15-16 (3), Mar_2:13, Mar_3:7, Mar_4:1 (3), Mar_4:39, Mar_4:41, Mar_5:1, Mar_5:13 (2), Mar_5:21, Mar_6:47-49 (3), Mar_7:31, Mar_9:42, Mar_11:23, Luk_17:2, Luk_17:6, Luk_21:25, Joh_6:1 (2), Joh_6:16-19 (4), Joh_6:22, Joh_6:25, Joh_21:1, Joh_21:7, Act_4:24, Act_7:36, Act_10:6, Act_10:32, Act_14:15, Act_17:14, Act_27:30, Act_27:38, Act_27:40, Act_28:4, Rom_9:27, 1Co_10:1-2 (2), 2Co_11:26, Heb_11:12, Heb_11:29, Jas_1:6, Jud_1:13, Rev_4:6, Rev_5:13, Rev_7:1-3 (3), Rev_8:8-9 (3), Rev_10:2, Rev_10:5-6 (2), Rev_10:8, Rev_12:12, Rev_13:1 (2), Rev_14:7, Rev_16:2-3 (4), Rev_18:17, Rev_18:19, Rev_18:21, Rev_20:8, Rev_20:13, Rev_21:1
​

red [sea], 2

Act_7:36, Heb_11:29​

 

The GWT shows to us those judged there are all found to be lost, and to depart into everlasting shame and judgement...

 

The Second death is Eternal separation from the presence of God....

 

Big problem with Sda thinking here is that they totally misunderstand that sleeping is not soul sleep, Biblical way to state died, and that second death is not ceasing to exist, but to exist in a state apart from God, that is eternal ruination and destruction, refers to the quality of existing, contrasting eternal life to eternal deatrh...

 

So, what you really mean is that you teach that a loving, merciful and just God sustains, by continuous miracle, [for there is nothing living that does not borrow life from God [Proverbs 22:7; Exodus 20:11; Nehemiah 9:6; Acts 14:15, 17:24,25, etc KJB]; the existence of all the wicked who have ever lived on earth, and all of the fallen hosts of heaven, including the arch-rebel satan himself, through all eternity, and thus teach that God sustains not only those wicked, but very sin itself, thus immortalizing them and it, so that they and it have eternal existence.

Ok, where does God sustain this vast host of wicked and wickedness? In other words, what is the specific place [the location thereof] that this innumerable throng of assassins, sodomites, sorcerors, liars, adulterers, murderers, thieves, despisers of good, blasphemers, railers, slanderers, etc actually exist for the eternity that you say they will, according to your belief? Please be specific. If you say "hell" [where is it located?], or "lake of fire" [where is it located], throughout this God sustained eternity?

 

So, what you are telling me is, that you actually teach Jesuit Roman Catholic doctrine, passing it off as scripture [KJB]?

Roman Catholic Online Catechism -

"... 1033 ... To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." ..."​

"... 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. ..."

"... 1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. ..." - Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in life everlasting​

Commonly understood:

"... But now the Catholic authorities in Rome have presented a strikingly different (and seemingly modern) picture of eternal damnation.

By their account, hell is best understood as the condition of total alienation from all that is good, hopeful and loving in the world. What's more, this condition is chosen by the damned themselves, the ultimate exercise of free will, not a punishment engineered by God.

Hell ''is not a 'place' but a 'state,' a person's 'state of being,' in which a person suffers from the deprivation of God,'' declared La Civilta Cattolica, an influential Jesuit magazine based in Rome and closely tied to the Vatican, in a long editorial in July. ..." - Hell Is Getting A Makeover From Catholics; Jesuits Call It a Painful State But Not a Sulfurous Place​

 

Go back to the scriptures instead, as eternal Hell and separation from God is there!

 

Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.....

 

Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

In Jude vs 7 - eternal fire.
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.


In 2Peter 2 - that eternal fire reduces them to ashes -
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes

Eternal fire - is the fire of God - from the eternal God -- and it destroys by reducing them to ashes

Many cities were destroyed or ruined - only to have new cities built on top of the ruins. Not so with Sodom and Gomorrah

 

So, according to your belief, all of the wicked [sinners and sin] who have ever existed, including satan himself, will have eternal existence [being sustained by God, by continuous miracle] "Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem.....". I assume you refer to Revelation 22:15 KJB in such a position? If so, you may want to reconsider the context of the text itself.

Can you tell me then, according to your belief, where [the specific location] is the New Jersualem, during this eternal existence of the wicked, once the wicked are cast into the "lake of fire", being "Outside the gates of the New Jerusalem", surrounding the city itself?

Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 21:2 KJB - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:10 KJB - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:25 KJB - And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Revelation 22:14 KJB - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

From what I read, according to the texts, the New Jerusalem, comes down from God out of Heaven, and lands upon the earth [old], and remains there [even while God re-creates the earth around it after the "lake of fire" event].

Are you telling me, that all of the wicked who have ever lived will be permanently existing outside of the New Jerusalem for all of eternity, in this vast "lake of fire", which would cover the entire face of the New Earth [as it is anti-type to Noah; and think of how many billions have existed since "cain"]? If so, it sounds like such a teaching as that has the wicked inheriting the position of existing all over the face of the New Earth. Does the righteous, in your belief, ever inherit the entire New Earth just for themselves where there is no more pain, etc? Or do you envision this "lake of fire" eternally existing outside of the New Jerusalem, being in view throughout eternity?

 

Matthew 10:28 "Fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

So while the Lake of Fire does provide literal torment of literal fire and literal brimstone to literal lost souls in literal lake of fire -- that supernatural event will end with the "destruction of BOTH body AND soul".

Even Satan himself will "be no more" -- will be reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Exek 18:4 "the soul that sin - it shall die"

Ezek 28 - reduced to ashes

Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

In Jude vs 7 - eternal fire.
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.


In 2Peter 2 - that eternal fire reduces them to ashes -
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes

Eternal fire - is the fire of God - from the eternal God -- and it destroys by reducing them to ashes

Many cities were destroyed or ruined - only to have new cities built on top of the ruins. Not so with Sodom and Gomorrah

You have free will of course and can have that as your response to the texts listed ---... I myself prefer the actual Bible.

If you were to Quote the Bible were Jesus said that you would see that it is found in Revelation 20. Hence my quote of Rev 20

Rev 20
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

But did not say the "punishing is eternal" or "forever incomplete"

Wouldn't you first have to "quote me" saying it??

You are free to argue with me against positions that I have actually stated or that are one of the SDA 28 Fundamental beliefs. But you can't "quote you" then debate me on something "you said" and "not me'.

I think we both know that.

 

It is because you have a misunderstanding of the definition of the word "hell" as the scripture [KJB] defines it. Would you like to see the incorrect assumption you are making about the definition? All we need to do, is go through every verse in scripture [KJB] and let the texts, line upon line, define it for us, in their proper contexts.

As for the length [duration] of the "lake of fire", this was demonstrated here - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

Which presently, and probably eternally, will go without answer, seeing as everytime I ask questions, I get the reaction of the pharisees, saduccees and scribes, which is to say - refusal to address the question directly, and mere assertions, assumptions, enlargment of sheer fabricated imagination, gnashing of teeth and character assassination in its place.

We could go back and simply count the number of questions I have directly asked, and see how many were directly addressed.

The "lake of fire" could not be "anywhere". That is incorrect according to the scriptures cited before you. It is clearly just outside and surrounding the New Jerusalem, once it comes down from God out of Heaven and rests upon this [old] earth:

Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 KJB - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

As for "another dimension", that is also not scriptural [KJB], and is "sci-fi" [science falsely so called; 1 Timothy 6:20 KJB], and you simply made it up [or borrowed it] to escape the inevitable conclusion of my pointed questions, and the clearly cited texts and evidences. You are self-deceiving yourself, and unless you repent, you will become more and more blind to scripture [KJB]. I do not joke. Please, do not do this. I am begging you, please, humble yourself before God, and go to Him, kneeling in prayer, asking Him for the truth of the matter before it is too late about these texts, for I fear that if you continue this route, you will do exactly as they of old did to Jesus, thinking they did God service.

The "lake of fire" is entirely visible to those inside of the New Jerusalem [once it comes down and the fire falls and comes up], for the whole universe must witness the final result of the punishment and the wages for sin, so that sin will never arise again,

Psalms 91:8 KJB - Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.​

What others say of the matter or think of the matter, is irrelevant. What matters is what scripture [KJB] says and teaches.

It is for us to know right now, for God hath spoken it even from the beginning:

Deuteronomy 29:29 KJB - The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.​

The "lake of fire" and its location, and how it comes about [fire from Heaven above, and from within the earth, as like unto the days of Noah with the waters, with the New Jerusalem resting above it all, all of the saved inside, preserved through it], is no secret, but plainly revealed, but will you accept what it says and teaches, along with the results thereof, or will you continue to put forth non-scriptural ideology? Your escape is cut off, there is no where for you to go, but through this fiery questioning, until you acknowledge the truth. Cauterize the festering and stinking wound of pride.

Psalms 140:10 KJB - Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Psalms 11:6 KJB - Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psalms 7:9 KJB - Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.​

 

Are you attempting to get brother BobRyan to post in a section he is not allowed to post in, thereby incurring penalty from the moderators? It plainly says: "Baptist Debate Forums (Baptist Only)". I did not see where brother BobRyan received any such invitation from a single Administrator to do so with permissions. Until such time, all such coaxing to do so, without specific invitation from the Administrator, is disingenuous, and detrimental to the reputation of brother BobRyan.

That you keep bringing up the subject, in every single thread, and practically every other post [in threads not dealing with the issue, thus are non-sequitur], means you have the issue, and you need to deal with it, personally, for it smacks of insecurity.

If you want to use whatever ecclectic text you use, that is your prerogative, though it does say something about how you deal with actual evidence.

OP topic please - for instance, my last reply - The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...