I Felt I Should Drop in and Explain Why I Left

Are there Christians who aren't "Spirit-filled"?

 

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. - Matthew 24:12

And sin in a believers heart not only makes the spirit arrogant, but cold as well.

 

I would say that there are even tongue talking Christians who aren't Spirit filled. The Holy Spirit is not accompanied with human ego! For the actual Holy Spirit to come shining through the flesh has got to be mortified!

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: - Colossians 3

 

Then perhaps you should have explained it.

 

In Acts 2 people got saved because of the tongues/languages that the Holy Spirit gave. If a Charismatic/Pentecostal speaks in tongues, and no one gets saved, it's not of the Holy Spirit. The original Pentecostals expected their gift of tongues to be useful in winning souls on the mission fields of the world, but it didn't happen. They had to go to language school just like I had to in Japan.

"Pentecostal believers went from America in 1906, believing that the gift of speaking in tongues which they had received would enable them to preach the gospel to the heathens in their own languages. A source from January 1908 reports eighteen cases from China, Japan, and India, all of which were unsuccessful" (Azusa Street and Beyond, by Charismatic scholars, ed. by L. Grant McClung, Jr., p. 13, quoting Nils Bloch Howell in The Pentecostal Movement).

"And what about my preaching: Had tongues strengthened it in any way? I had discovered quickly that, for the most part, effective preaching depended on a good idea, adequate study, and rapport with the audience. Tongues didn't make me a better preacher. Or, take another activity, one-to-one evangelism. I had witnessed in bars, talked to dropouts on the street, attempted to convert hitchhikers, left tracts with tips for waitresses, etc. But had the fact that I talked in tongues ever won a single convert?" (Wayne A. Robinson, I Once Spoke in Tongues, pp. 49-50).

 

Of course there are, or Paul would not have given a command to the believers at Ephesus to "Be filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18). However, there are no true believers in Christ who are not indwelt by the Spirit, which is a different matter (Rom. 8:9).

 

Only indirectly. The people assembled in the upper room on Pentecost were already "saved". They were following the instructions from Jesus to remain in Jerusalem until they received power. Speaking in Tongues (the miracle repeated throughout Acts, beginning in Acts 2) simply got the attention of the crowd. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter in Acts 2 that touched their heart and told them how to get saved. (Acts 2:37)

The 'tongues' of Corinthians does sound like it is describing something different than the Tongues of Acts 2 (but there is too little detail to be conclusive about exactly what is happening in Corinthians).

 

The OP has not responded at all to my noting that he "translates" the same utterance two conflicting ways:

 

You are quibbling. They witnessed in other languages about "the wonderful works of God" (v. 11). It would be very strange if these Spirit filled and led (v. 4) foreign language speakers had nothing to do with the salvation of the listeners.

Actually, the act of speaking in tongues was not "repeated throughout Acts." It only occurs three times: in Acts 2 (clearly normal languages), 10:46, and 19:6. Then in ch. 21, 22, and 26 it is Paul speaking a specific language, Hebrew, and not through a miracle.

It's a stretch to think that the tongues of Corinth were something different than Acts. The same Greek word, glossa, meaning "language," is used in both passages. Also, the miracle of Acts 2 was so momentous, it is very strange to think that the Corinthians were doing something different. They knew about the Acts 2 miracle and were trying to duplicate it. Paul graciously and carefully guided them to truth.

And as everyone knows, the church at Corinth was the most problem-filled church in the NT, hardly an example for modern day churches, despite the Pentecostal/Charismatic efforts. Of all the NT epistles (including Rev. 2 & 3), the wild church at Corinth is the only one that needed teaching about tongues. And even then, not all spoke in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30), contra the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine.

 

If tongues is a bad thing if not accompanied with the actual Holy Spirit. If accompanied with the Holy Spirit it is edifying...

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; - 1 Cor 14:4
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Cor 14:39
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: - 1 Corinthians 14:18

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. - Mark 16:17-18

These experiences scripturally apply to all who believe.

 

First you have to define "tongues." If you mean some type of verbalization that is not provably an actual language, then you are not talking about the tongues of the Bible. Remember that the word "unknown" in the KJV is in italics. It was not in the original Greek. The meaning of the word "tongue" in 1611 was simply "language.” So an "unknown language" was one the listener did not know.

Yep, if I speak about the Lord in your church in Japanese and no one there understands it, I'll be edifying no one but myself.

Meaning "prophesy" (preach, forth-tell) in a known language. I once preached in an international church, was interpreted into Chinese, Japanese, Thai, etc., and did not forbid anyone to speak their own language.

Paul spoke Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic for a start, and probably Latin and some dialects. I thank my God that I have been gifted by Him in the are of languages, teach NT Greek, and am fluent in Japanese so that I have seen many Japanese come to Christ.

Yep, when I went to Japan I spent two years studying the language, and received divine help to do so. I spoke in a new language.

Interpret this if you will: イエス・キリストを信じないと、永遠に地獄に行きます。信じると、天国に行きます。If you have the true gift of tongues, this will be easy for you. If you have to use Google Translate, you don't have the gift.

Jonathan Goforth received ability to speak in Chinese and win Chinese to Christ through a miraculous answer to prayer. Who are you winning to Christ with your tongues?

"One day as Jonathan was about to leave for the chapel, he said to his wife, 'If the Lord does not work a miracle for me with this language, I fear I will be an utter failure as a missionary!'

"For a moment only he looked the heartbreak that that would mean. Then picking up his Chinese Bible, he started off. Two hours later he returned.

"'Oh, Rose!' he cried. 'It was just wonderful! When I began to speak, those phrases and idioms that would always elude me came readily and I could make myself understood so well that the men actually asked me to go on though Donald had risen to speak. I know the backbone of the language is broken. Praise the Lord!' Mr. Goforth then made a full note of this in his diary. About two months later, a letter came from Mr. Talling… saying that on a certain evening after supper, a number of students decided to meet in one of the class-rooms for prayer, 'just for Goforth.' The letter stated that the presence and power of God was so manifestly felt by all at that meeting, they were convinced Goforth must surely have been helped in some way. On looking up his diary, Mr. Goforth found the meeting for prayer by the students in Knox coincided with the experience recorded above" (Goforth of China, by Rosalind Goforth, pp. 87-88).

 

Speaking in tongues and preaching in another language are two different things.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. - 1 Corintheans 14:2

 

"pretty sure you got a demon Derrell"

Very funny!

 

Sorry, Stephen, but being Baptized with the Holy Ghost is not a subsequent event in the life of a Christian, it is in fact the moment when men are immersed in God. It is the moment when we are saved. Don't feel bad, most groups, particularly Charismatics, incorrectly teach that it is an empowering.

That is the "filling" of the Spirit.

Remember this...


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


...Christ is the Baptizer, and the medium is the Holy Spirit.

It is the Promise of God in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Here we see the promise of the New Birth and the Indwelling of God, which was not taking place then, and did not begin until Pentecost:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Peter defines the Baptism with the Holy Ghost here:


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)


13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


That is what the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is.

And what we want to do, Stephen, is practice our faith based on a sound understanding of the Doctrine of the Bible, not the doctrines of men. Now their practices.

Remember this as well...


1 Corinthians 14:5, 19
King James Version (KJV)

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


Paul's point is that unless men understand what is being said to them...it is meaningless. Here, he states essentially "I would rather speak five words men understand than ten thousand they do not."

Prophesying is the speaking forth of God's Word, it does not have to hold a connotation of foretelling the future.

Lastly, look at Paul's example of speaking in tongues:


20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


A couple points:

1. Understanding must always accompany Ministry, it is useless if men don't know what you are saying. The rebuke here is most likely to the counterfeit "tongues" of ecstatic speech associated with false religions, such as that practiced at the Oracle of Delphi. So Paul states don't be childlike in your understanding.

2. We know Paul is speaking of the genuine gift of tongues when he gives the example which is written (Isaiah 28:11), and the point is, in judgement God will send foreign invaders to conquer them. The "other tongues" is heteroglōssos, other "lips" is cheilos which is the same word used when Christ states "...they honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me." The point being, again, just as in Acts 2, known languages and dialects are the "tongues" of the genuine gift.

3. "Tongues" are a sign for unbelievers. The unbelievers directly in view are those who have rebelled against God and have come under judgment.

And where do we normally see tongues employed? In their worship service. Do we see them going to foreigners and speaking the Word of God?

No.

So if you think you received a subsequent gift after salvation, you didn't. And initially you implied that you were "now speaking in tongues," so were you saved prior to doing this? Seeing you say you have been doing it for some time?

Hope that helps, Stephen.


God bless.

 

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.- Acts 19