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New Testament Quotations of the Old Testament

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by rlvaughn, Apr 7, 2018.

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  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Good enough. :)
     
    #101 John of Japan, Apr 13, 2018
  2. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask the question. The NT quotes that are equivalent to the Greek text of the LXX, are these quotes "inspired" in exactly the same way that the original Hebrew OT is?
     
    #102 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No, I said exactly that the quotes in the NT are from either the LXX or the Hebrew in Post #55. I have not modified my response in the slightest. You simply don't understand plain English.

    Great. Now learn English correctly.
     
    #103 John of Japan, Apr 13, 2018
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I think you better study up on what exactly the Vorlage text actually represents.

    "Vorlage" is a German word that means "prototype" and refers to an older version of the text under consideration. In this case an older version of the Hebrew text, older than the Masoretic Text.

    But what must be understood is that the Vorlage Text was unknown prior to the Qumran discoveries. The Hebrew community did not know of it nor use it. Nor did the Christian community.

    One of the tests of canonicity is that it was recognized and used by God's people down through the ages of history. That cannot be said of the Vorlage text.

    What is more likely is that the Vorlage text includes scribal glosses that made their way into the body of the text. And the only example of these variant readings was the various editions of the Old Testament in Greek. (Only Ἡ μετάφρασις τῶν Ἑβδομήκοντα can rightly be called "The LXX." Origen's Hexapla may have been a copy of the LXX but we really don't know as we have no complete manuscripts of that work. The other most important Greek translations of the Old Testament were done by Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion.)

    Today, what is published as "The LXX" is compiled from Codices Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus.
     
    #104 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2018
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  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of both the OT and the NT in the original languages. This means that when the NT quotes the OT, those quotes are inspired in the same verbal plenary way as the rest of the Bible, even when those quotes disagree with the Hebrew original, whether that be from the LXX or the Hebrew re-translated by the NT human author (and those situations do exist). In those cases, God (through the human author) has His own purposes for the re-translation.

    If you are going to say that no translation can never, ever be inspired, even when occurring within the NT, then you are denying the translation of many phrases and words right there in the NT text (Boanerges, etc.). In fact, you are then denying your own premise that the NT quotes in the OT are from the Hebrew, because even then they are translations.

    If on the other hand you are saying that a non-inspired translation such as the LXX (as a complete translation) or the Vulgate or the KJV (all of which have had advocates for perfection) cannot be considered as having verbal plenary inspiration, then I agree.
     
    #105 John of Japan, Apr 13, 2018
  6. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    I have a question, what evidence is there that there was an LXX that existed before the time of Christ and the Apostles?

    I have heard often that the Apostles quoted the LXX, but I am wondering if that is really the case?
     
    #106 Jordan Kurecki, Apr 13, 2018
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    God did not what?

    Yeah, we all know that.

    Yeah, we all know that too.

    Now, do you have something of substance to contribute or are you going to continue to play Captain Obvious?
     
    #107 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2018
  8. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    and how do you know this?

    The Hebrew community did not know of it nor use it. Nor did the Christian community.
     
    #108 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Probably. Papyrus Fouad 266 is a copy of the Pentateuch in Greek it dates to the 1st century BC but it is mostly fragmented.
    That is the point of the discussion. Did they quote an existing Greek translation of the OT, or did they translate from Hebrew on the fly? Or some of both. (I tend toward the last possibility.)
     
    #109 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2018
  10. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    the LXX was completed by about 150 B.C., and used by the Church fathers. I do not believe the the NT writers quoted from it
     
    #110 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    History.
     
    #111 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2018
  12. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    bottom line is, that NO, not even the LXX is or can be inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is impossible!
     
    #112 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
  13. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    which can be mistaken, right?
     
    #113 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Once again you completely miss the point!
     
    #114 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2018
  15. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    you said in #83, "God quotes from a translation". He NEVER does, this is pure guesswork!
     
    #115 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
  16. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    :Rolleyes
     
    #116 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Can you supply a quote that is incontestably from the Vorlage text prior to the Qumram finds?
     
    #117 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2018
  18. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Can a translation of the Hebrew original be inspired?
     
    #118 John of Japan, Apr 13, 2018
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, you believe the quotes of the Old Testament in the New Testament were taken from the Old Testament that was inspired in Greek and put into the Hebrew Old Testament so the New Testament writers wouldn't have to translate them into Greek?

    Can you show me a Hebrew manuscript of the Old Testament that contains the Greek phrases quoted in the New Testament?
     
    #119 TCassidy, Apr 13, 2018
  20. Saved-By-Grace

    Saved-By-Grace Well-Known Member

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    The Holy Bible very clearly says:

    "πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος", which ONLY refers to the original Hebrew OT and Greek NT. Period!
     
    #120 Saved-By-Grace, Apr 13, 2018
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