New Testament Quotations of the Old Testament

[Saved-By-Grace]

Can a translation of the Hebrew original be inspired?

there is not Hebrew original, we only have "translations"

 

[TCassidy]

you said in #83, "God quotes from a translation". He NEVER does, this is pure guesswork!

This discussion cannot continue if you insist on such dishonesty. Quote what I said entirely without editing it down to make it say something else.

I said "WHEN God quotes from a translation." When God does that He has the ability to vest that quote with inspiration.

 

[loDebar]

I believe the Rabbis would have taught from a form of Hebrew , not Greek, especially in the synagogues , They are still radically Jews first.

Was Jesus reading Hebrew in this?

Luk 4:17
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19
To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

So, you believe the quotes of the Old Testament in the New Testament were taken from the Old Testament that was inspired in Greek and put into the Hebrew Old Testament so the New Testament writers wouldn't have to translate them into Greek?

Can you show me a Hebrew manuscript of the Old Testament that contains the Greek phrases quoted in the New Testament?

did you know that the DSS is in more agreement with the LXX, than the MT? The DSS could indeed represent the original Hebrew closer than any other text. So, it is not difficult to conclude, that the NT quotes that resemble the LXX, and actually from the Hebrew of the DSS

 

[TCassidy]

there is not Hebrew original, we only have "translations"

I have three copies of the Hebrew Old Testament right here on my book shelf. All of them are in Hebrew. None of them were translated from some mystical proto-language (Martian again?).

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

This discussion cannot continue if you insist on such dishonesty. Quote what I said entirely without editing it down to make it say something else.

I said "WHEN God quotes from a translation." When God does that He has the ability to vest that quote with inspiration.

This is guesswork, as there is NO evidence that God ever quotes from ANY "translation", since He is the One Who Inspired the original writers.

 

[TCassidy]

bottom line is, that NO, not even the LXX is or can be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Nobody claimed it is.

 

[TCassidy]

The Holy Bible very clearly says:

"πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος", which ONLY refers to the original Hebrew OT and Greek NT. Period!

Yes, we all know that. Still playing Captain Obvious?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I have three copies of the Hebrew Old Testament right here on my book shelf. All of them are in Hebrew. None of them were translated from some mystical proto-language (Martian again?).

ok, then COPY.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Nobody claimed it is.

how about any "quotes", that some suppose the NT has?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Yes, we all know that. Still playing Captain Obvious?

some have a hard time understanding deep studies!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I have had my say on this...

 

[TCassidy]

how about any "quotes", that some suppose the NT has?

The New Testament is inspired.

 

[rlvaughn]

Actually, I think you guys are somewhat talking around each other because you are sometimes using different terminology for the same thing and sometimes the same terminology for different things!

 

[rlvaughn]

Here is one example I gave earlier that seems to support the NT quoting the LXX, a comparison of Romans 3:12-18 with Psalm 14:3 (numbered Psalm 13 in the Septuagint)

Greek Septuagint text used by the Church of Greece (Psalm 13/14:3; also matches the print copy of my Brenton Septuagint)

πάντες ἐξέκλιναν, ἅμα ἠχρειώθησαν, οὐκ ἔστι ποιῶν χρηστότητα, οὐκ ἔστιν ἕως ἑνός. τάφος ἀνεῳγμένος ὁ λάρυγξ αὐτῶν, ταῖς γλώσσαις αὑτῶν ἐδολιοῦσαν· ἰὸς ἀσπίδων ὑπὸ τὰ χείλη αὐτῶν, ὧν τὸ στόμα ἀρᾶς καὶ πικρίας γέμει, ὀξεῖς οἱ πόδες αὐτῶν ἐκχέαι αἷμα, σύντριμμα καὶ ταλαιπωρία ἐν ταῖς ὁδοῖς αὐτῶν, καὶ ὁδὸν εἰρήνης οὐκ ἔγνωσαν· οὐκ ἔστι φόβος Θεοῦ ἀπέναντι τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν.

Stephanos-1550 Greek New Testament (Romans 3:12-18; also matches my TRS Textus Receptus, and, I think, NA28)

παντες εξεκλιναν ἅμα ἠχρεώθησαν ουκ εστιν ποιων χρηστοτητα ουκ εστιν εως ενος ταφος ανεωγμενος ο λαρυγξ αυτων ταις γλωσσαις αυτων εδολιουσαν ιος ασπιδων υπο τα χειλη αυτων ων το στομα αρας και πικριας γεμει οξεις οι ποδες αυτων εκχεαι αιμα συντριμμα και ταλαιπωρια εν ταις οδοις αυτων και οδον ειρηνης ουκ εγνωσαν ουκ εστιν φοβος θεου απεναντι των οφθαλμων αυτων

Except for some pointings and punctuation that the online Stephanos which I copied doesn't have, one can observe that these are an exact match (unless I overlooked some difference, of course).

And regardless of what anyone thinks of anything else, let me hasten to shout that I believe that Paul wrote Romans 3:12-18 (of course, it didn't have our chapter and verse numbers then) under the direct inspiration of God and it is therefore perfect and without error.

 

[John of Japan]

there is not Hebrew original, we only have "translations"

So then, do you not believe that the OT was originally written in Hebrew, and we have copies of that, so we have the original language of the OT?

 

[John of Japan]

Actually, I think you are somewhat talking around each other because you are sometimes using different terminology for the same thing and sometimes the same terminology for different things!

The problem is that English is apparently not the first language of Saved-by-Grace. I can tell this from his syntax, which is occasionally tortured. So I really think he is not understanding correctly some of our plain English statements, and he is not communicating well in English what he believes.

 

[TCassidy]

did you know that the DSS is in more agreement with the LXX, than the MT?

Duh! That is why that Hebrew textform was originally called "The Septuagint Type Text." And not all of the Qumram manuscripts of the Old Testament reflect the Vorlage text. The Isaiah scroll (1QIsa/a) is consistent with the Masoretic text.

The DSS could indeed represent the original Hebrew closer than any other text.

The Qumram finds are all over the board. Some are consistent with the Mesoretic text and some display readings consistent with the LXX type text.

So, it is not difficult to conclude, that the NT quotes that resemble the LXX, and actually from the Hebrew of the DSS

But it is conclusion not based on facts, but mere uninformed speculation.

how about any "quotes", that some suppose the NT has?

Luke 4:17-19.

some have a hard time understanding deep studies!

Yes, and you are in way over your head.

I have had my say on this...

Good idea as you have made a public spectacle of yourself.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Duh! That is why that Hebrew textform was originally called "The Septuagint Type Text." And not all of the Qumram manuscripts of the Old Testament reflect the Vorlage text. The Isaiah scroll (1QIsa/a) is consistent with the Masoretic text.

The Qumram finds are all over the board. Some are consistent with the Mesoretic text and some display readings consistent with the LXX type text.

But it is conclusion not based on facts, but mere uninformed speculation.

Luke 4:17-19.

Yes, and you are in way over your head.

Good idea as you have made a public spectacle of yourself.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The problem is that English is apparently not the first language of Saved-by-Grace. I can tell this from his syntax, which is occasionally tortured. So I really think he is not understanding correctly some of our plain English statements, and he is not communicating well in English what he believes.