Leaning Calvinist, Push me in, or Pull me back

"we all had our lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

This is describing someone who listens to Jesus' voice and follows Him (ie a sheep)?

quote- What are the characteristics of a goat?

answer- lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and by nature the children of wrath

quote- Anyone outside of Christ on the last day goes into second death...Your philosophy is not going to change biblical fact.

Which philosophy? The one that says that they go to the Second Death BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF? I am sorry you think that is unbiblical.

quote- Unbelief is a sin.

Yes, that is why it is the basis for an unbeliever's condemnation (and not the fact that they were born a goat or were unconditionally decreed to be a goat.)

quote- because they are not sheep....so they do not believe, they do not want to believe, and they never will believe, because they love their sin.

You used to love sin too, didn't you?

quote- Do not blame God for mans sin..

Who blamed God for man's sin? You think it is God's good pleasure to damn sinners. I don't. I believe it when God says that He is willing that all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1)

quote- That is a false and defective view of the atonement....that is two different threads rolled into one.

You don't believe Hebrews 2:9

quote- Jesus died for the sheep.....while they were yet sinners...their belief did not merit anything, their belief is a gift from God.

No one says that belief merits anything. That is a strawman

quote- No...He took upon Him the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Adam.

What does this have to do with anything?

quote- The wrath of God is abiding on those outside of Christ.

The wrath of God is abiding on those who DO NOT BELIEVE (John 3:18)

They are outside of Christ because they do not believe

I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I am enjoying your answers. I hope that hearing the other side will make me more balanced in my views, or even correct me if I am wrong. I am very open to being corrected by the Word of God.

 

He does not save goats, but He did die for them. Hebrews 2:9, He died for every man.

...and He is leading them to repentance (Romans 2:4)

...and He says things so they might be saved. (John 5:34)

Romans 10:21- He stretches out His Hands to them.

Hebrews 2:1-3- How can you neglect something that is not offered or given to you. And the language is very strong regarding those who neglect salvation.

 

People are judged according to the LIGHT that they have received. Those who have not heard are without excuse, because that which may be known of God concerning His eternal power and Godhead has been revealed to them.

 

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? Ro 9

 

Thank you, my friend, for your kind demeanor and civility in discussing this with me. My significant difference in the biblical doctrine of election and how it is used by my Reformed brethren is simply this. I believe the Word of God clearly teaches that election emphasizes sanctification, not salvation.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I think you'll agree with me that not all saved men are conforming to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is certainly our goal and definitely the Father's will (Ephesians 2:10). Still, many, if not most, fall far short. So, both sanctification and salvation are "conditional."

I do not believe the Holy Spirit's unction is unconditionally given to men regardless of their deportment. I also do not believe that God's saving grace is unconditionally given to men.

In my humble opinion, to say that some men are doomed to an eternity in hell because God chose not to save them and some will spend an eternity in heaven based solely on the fact that chose did choose to save them (unconditionally) is the antithesis of His nature and character.

 

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9

 

You have an issue with God be God.

God has the right to do what He will with His own.

Whatever he does is just and right.

He chooses to have mercy on some and desires to harden others.

Too many people use the word LORD to lightly.

He is the LORD. He is the sovereign.

We have no right to judge Him.

God in the dock? Absolutely not!

 

Yea me too.... maybe that’s why I got left off the list. Forget about it.

 

Brother, to say that I do not see God as do you is not an indictment. God is bound to continually manifest His attributes. God is holy, just, and sovereign. Election is not one of His attributes but rather one of His actions. Election, as you define it, would violate the immutable attributes of God.

No disagreement here at all.

 

Another good post Pastor Bob. I like how you have conducted yourself here and I learn by your gracious example that discussion can be spirited but graceful, even when viewed differently.
I will look forward to responding in detail here as I think this can be quite beneficial.
There are many factors here to address so at the end of my work day I will get to it.

 

All of us were condemned in Adam, as he was the representative before us to God, and when Adam fell, we all fell into judgement and under the effects of the fall, so all in Adam are under divine judgement as still in their sins, all in Christ now are saved.
God did not intend to have the death of jesus stone for all sinners in a saving sense, just His own elect.

 

Pastor_Bob,

yes..thank you for responding. I will react now in more detail as i said I would.

This is helpful. It identifies a difference that needs to be examined.
We agree already that because of the blood of Jesus we are brothers.
We agree there is a biblical doctrine of election.
What the difference relates to seems to be the nature of what the election is for.Let's take a look:

This statement needs a bit of expansion and if possible some clarification .
You suggest your statement is clearly taught in scripture.
What verses suggest this to you? could you give a few examples?

.
I could agree if you mean...all professed saved persons do not give much evidence of growing in grace.
Sanctification is progressive and no one is fully conformed to The Image of the Son here and now.
I do not agree that ALL biblically saved persons are in the process of being conformed to that image, as I believe that would deny the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a real Christian.

We offend in many things...

This is a major difference up and down the line.If salvation is of the Lord they are unconditional as it is God who works in us.
It is not conditioned on man, or any such conditions...but rather God's mercy;
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

It must be to be all of grace and mercy, therefore unconditional

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Men who die in their sins are doomed...because they love sin;

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

I think you need to reconsider this biblical image of God given in scripture...
God did not choose to harvest save persons from all of the world in the OT. DEUT:7
6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

The character of God was in no way compromised by His choiceof some and not others.
Even among His choice of one nation, not everyone in the nation was chosen.
rom9;
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

Pastor_Bob,

I wanted to address this by itself now by asking some questions here.

Do you know of any unsaved persons who are elected to be conformed to the image of the Son?

You say election emphasizes.....sanctification.....NOT SALVATION

So who is elected to be sanctified and yet be unsaved???

If they are unsaved persons...they do not have the Spirit of God...so how are they sanctified???

I have no idea how this can be

The text is Romans does not specify election, but rather predestination....and all the parts of the "golden chain of redemption "speak only of elect believers.

Whom He did foreknow....He also did...predestinate

Whom he did predestinate, them he also called,

Whom He called, them He also justified,

Whom He justified, them He also glorifies

The WHOM and Them...are ALL Christians, All elect sheep who are saved...why would you suggest that a person can be sanctified by the doctrine of election?

from aw.pink;
"Behold I and the children which God hath given Me." Those whom God hath given to Christ were referred to by Him, again and again, during the days of His public ministry. "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me" (John 6:37). "I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me" (John 17:6, 9). They were given to Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). These "children" are God’s elect, sovereignly singled out by Him, and from the beginning chosen unto salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). God’s elect having been given to Christ "before the foundation of the world," and therefore from all eternity, throws light upon a title of the Savior’s found in Isaiah 9:6: "The everlasting Father." This has puzzled many. It need not. Christ is the "everlasting Father" because from everlasting He has had "children!" Why were these "children" given to Christ. The first answer must be, For His own glory. Christ is the Center of all God’s counsels, and His glory the one object ever held in view. Christ will be eternally glorified by having around Him a family, each member of which is predestined to be "conformed to His image" (Romans 8:29). The second answer is, That He might save them: "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37)

 

To presume God murders or satisfies sadism because he can is a sin, as well as presume his right to do what he will with his own will would be anything like evil at all.


I personally will have mercy on whom I have mercy too. Matter of factly it is what it is.

Someone can say, I will murder and steal from who I will murder and steal, No one. It is what it is. These phrases are TRUE no matter who you apply them to.

My dog also has show mercy to whom he will show mercy........Doesn't mean God's mercy is a Dog's mercy.


The insult to God is presuming God would sin and on top of that making SIN some sort of PERK.

 

Simply God's command is for no one to sin.

If God asked me does he want anyone to sin, I say he absolutely does not want ANYONE to SIN, EVER.

Implying they should, ought, are desried, even commanded to take their place in heaven.


Who hears the command of God and cannot grasp the gist of his desire? Please.....


James 4

8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you." --Things I never heard a Calvinist say.

 

glad4mercy,

Did you have a relapse? Eph2...describes a sheep who was lost, being found by God...verses 1-3 show what the lost sheeps condidtion was...EVEN AS OTHERS....Vs 4 gives the complete reason for the change
BUT GOD WHO IS RICH IN MERCY
If you cannot grasp this....you will not get any of the rest.Take a deep breath and reread this whole passage.

Also....they do not believe jn10:26...they do not want to....

those who never even know of Jesus will be their because they sin , in thought,word ,and deed.....many never hear the name of Jesus, to believe it or not...but they all sin....everyday.


quote- because they are not sheep....so they do not believe, they do not want to believe, and they never will believe, because they love their sin.

Even as others....eph2:3

Your post did....not in those words, but you said God made them goats, or some such thing

.

Which post did I say that in?

Oh..but I do believe it indeed...it is just that I understand what it means..it does not say...every...MAN....it says this;
Pink: Hebrews commentary;
"For every man." This rendering is quite misleading. "Anthropos," the Greek word for "man" is not in the verse at all. Thus, one of the principal texts relied upon by Arminians in their unscriptural contention for a general atonement vanishes into thin air. The Revised Version places the word "man" in italics to show that it is not found in the original. The Greek is "panta" and signifies "every one,"

that is, every one of those who form the subjects of the whole passage—every one of "the heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14), every one of the "sons" (Heb. 2:10), every one of the "brethren" (Heb. 2:11). We may say that this is the view of the passage taken by Drs. Gouge and J. Brown, by Saphir, and a host of others who might be mentioned. Theologically it is demanded by the "tasted death for every one," i.e., substitutionally, in the room of, that they might not. Hence, every one for whom He tasted death shall themselves never do so (see John 8:52), and this is true only of the people of God



Hebrews 2:9, 'Taste Death For Everyone'

or here...the context determines who is in view...
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, becauseof the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: ton de brachu ti par' aggelous elattomenon (RPPMSA) blepomen (1PPAI) Iesoun dia to pathematou thanatou doce kai time estephanomenon, (RPPMSA) hopos chariti theou huper pantos geusetai(3SAMS) thanatou.


Young's Literal: and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.

you totally missed the whole point again.

Just...everything,lol

This passage defines who is in view from verse 9-16....the elect seed of Abraham.....not all of Adams descendants....get it yet?
The Greek verb here translated "He took on" or "laid hold" is found elsewhere in some very striking connections. It is used of Christ’s stretching out His hand and rescuing sinking Peter, Matthew 14:31, there rendered "caught." It is used of Christ when He "took" the blind man by the hand (Mark 8:23). So of the man sick of the dropsy. He "took" and healed him (Luke 14:4). Here in Hebrews 2:16 the reference is to the almighty power and invincible grace of the Captain of our salvation. It receives illustration in those words of the apostle’s where, referring to his own conversion, he said, "for which also I am (was) apprehended (laid hold) of Christ Jesus" (Phil. 3:12). Thus it was and still is with each of God’s elect. In themselves, lost, rushing headlong to destruction; when Christ stretches forth His hand and delivers, so that of each it may be said, "Is not this a brand plucked from the burning" (Zech. 3:2). "Laid hold of" so securely that none can pluck out of His hand! But not only does our verse emphasize the invincibility of Divine grace, it also plainly teaches the absolute sovereignty of it. Christ lays hold not of "the seed of Adam," all mankind, but only "the seed of Abraham"—the father of God’s elect people.

 

We don't have an issue with the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible is neither willing that any should perish nor takes pleasure in the death of the wicked. The God of the Bible does not assign people to hell before they are born. The God of the Bible leads men to repent, even those that refuse. The God of the Bible tasted death for every man. The God of the Bible loved the world and gave His only Son. The God of the Bible punishes those who will not believe. He does not punish based on a state that a person is born in, but judges based on what we do with Jesus. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned. Whoever does not believe is condemned already, not because they were doomed from the womb, but ( in Jesus' own Words) they did not. Believe in God's only Son