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Romans has nothing to do with personal salvation

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Ran the Man, Feb 21, 2019.

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  1. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    If you read thru Romans without jumping around, you find that Paul is talking about God's switch from Israel as his chosen vessel to the Church. He specifically tells us why the gentiles are lost in Romans 2. Then he goes on to tell us why the Jews are lost. Then he tells us how God has the right to chose and use any vessel (jews or gentiles) that he pleases. Then in chapter 11, he even says God can switch back and use the Jews if the Gentiles get too proud.
    The whole thing has nothing to do with personal salvation. That is placing western individualism upon the text.
    It is about God using his new chosen vessel, with the gentiles being those whom he forknew (pre planned or pre envisioned) to use when the time of his first vessel was completed.
     
    #1 Ran the Man, Feb 21, 2019
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  2. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You can't be serious...
     
    #2 Reformed1689, Feb 21, 2019
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  3. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    Why can't I be serious? I can be anything I want to, since I believe in freewill.
     
    #3 Ran the Man, Feb 21, 2019
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be trolling...
     
    #4 Reformed1689, Feb 22, 2019
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  5. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    I could see how one could accuse him of that in the other posts, but this one is far from trolling. Can you in any way walk us through your accusation to explain why this post is trolling?

    Or are you trolling?

    Have you ever read Roman's in one sitting?

    This is the post of Ran the Man's which I most agree with. Calvinists tend to read the bible verse by verse and can't see the forest for all the trees.

    The above is what I disagree with. It reeks of Arminianism.
     
    #5 MartyF, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, given other threads when in answer to a question you say "I can be anything I want to, since I believe in freewill." That's classic trolling. It has nothing to do with the topic or the question.

    Many times.

    I disagree with this assertion.
     
    #6 Reformed1689, Feb 22, 2019
  7. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    "Trolling consists of provoking large volumes of responses by posting absurdities, deliberately offensive insults, etc."

    What he has done here in this thread is not even close to that. You're redefining what trolling is to try to defend an argument.
     
    #7 MartyF, Feb 22, 2019
  8. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, he continued the large volume from another thread. But honestly, you are derailing this thread at this point. If you would like to take it up further feel free to PM me.
     
    #8 Reformed1689, Feb 22, 2019
  9. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    So maybe it's not trolling, but it's definitely spamming. If our new resident open theist wanted to discuss some things, fine. But cluttering up the board with thread after thread...
     
    #9 Rob_BW, Feb 22, 2019
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  10. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    Trolling accusations are a snowflake way of dismissing someone or their argument. It exists primarily on politically correctness infected forums. Let's make this site a safe space from it, shall we?
     
    #10 Ran the Man, Feb 22, 2019
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  11. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    I didn't want to agree with this. But I have to. He's up to 6 threads now? In three days?

    I don't know why he is claiming Open Theism when he hasn't posted anything which sounds like it.
     
    #11 MartyF, Feb 22, 2019
  12. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    lets see,
    Romans tells us that we are sinners, that the penalty is death, that Christ died for us, that if we repent - we will be saved.

    Sounds like a map for personal salvation!
     
    #12 Salty, Feb 22, 2019
  13. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    It only looks that way because we tend to read everything they the lens of western individualism.
     
    #13 Ran the Man, Feb 22, 2019
  14. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Believe it all you want... Some people believe in UFO's too but that doesn't make it so... Brother Glen:)

    Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    I predict Ran The Man maybe run out of here pretty soon:D
     
    #14 tyndale1946, Feb 22, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  15. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    If you run me out it says more about you than me.
    The verses you quoted are talking about God's right to use whatever vessel he chooses, in this case, the Gentiles in place of the Jews.
     
    #15 Ran the Man, Feb 23, 2019
  16. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    Which 70s rock band helped you exegete this passage?
     
    #16 prophecy70, Mar 1, 2019
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  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are you advocating that Calvin/Luther/Hodgh/Berkhof/Erickison/Grudem /Sproul et all had this wrong, and NT Wright has it right?
     
    #17 Yeshua1, Mar 1, 2019
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  18. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    NT Wright is another dead white guy?
     
    #18 Ran the Man, Mar 1, 2019
  19. prophecy70

    prophecy70 Active Member

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    You don't know who NT Wright is?
     
    #19 prophecy70, Mar 2, 2019
  20. Ran the Man

    Ran the Man Active Member

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    Uh, should I?
     
    #20 Ran the Man, Mar 2, 2019
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