Calvinism VS Arminianism Comparison Chart by L. Boettner

[utilyan]

What is the position of God's Omnipotence and Sovereignty? for example Could God run creation in a NON-Calvinist way if he ordains it so? Could he create free will creatures if he ordains it so?

Or is God limited and forced to do things by the Calvinist tradition?

 

[Dave G]

I happen to think the first 3 points of Calvinism summarize what scripture says about sin and grace. I make Baptist flavored adjustments to the 4th and 5th points.

I agree with all 5, but the way that "Irresistible Grace" is worded, I disagree with one small portion of it:

To me, there is no outward general call to salvation made to everyone, as many "Calvinists" seem to teach.
There is an outward call to repentance made to everyone ( Please see Acts of the Apostles 17:22-31 ).

The only outward call to salvation that I see, is that which was preached to the Jews during the Lord's ministry ( Mark 1:15 ).
That is where I get the "many" in "many are called, but few are chosen".

Many Jews are called, but few are chosen ( see Romans 11:7-8 ).

 

[1689Dave]

What is the position of God's Omnipotence and Sovereignty? for example Could God run creation in a NON-Calvinist way if he ordains it so? Could he create free will creatures if he ordains it so?

Or is God limited and forced to do things by the Calvinist tradition?

Based on scripture, the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession essentially say that people have free will but the secondary causes they base their free choices on are used by God to control them. I use a goat following a carrot in the direction the boy wants the goat to pull the wagon. The goat chooses what it wants according to what the boy wants, and the carrot on the cane pole is the reason behind the goat's choices.

 

[utilyan]

Based on scripture, the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession essentially say that people have free will but the secondary causes they base their free choices on are used by God to control them. I use a goat following a carrot in the direction the boy wants the goat to pull the wagon. The goat chooses what it wants according to what the boy wants, and the carrot on the cane pole is the reason behind the goat's choices.

Could God run a NON-Calvinist system if he wanted to? Could GOD ordain free will in a NON-Calvinist manner?

Or is God limited and forced to do things by the Calvinist tradition?

 

[1689Dave]

Could God run a NON-Calvinist system if he wanted to? Could GOD ordain free will in a NON-Calvinist manner?

Or is God limited and forced to do things by the Calvinist tradition?

Free Will in the common understanding = two sovereigns. But also consider God does not have a free will. If he did, we could not trust him. We have faith in him because we know he wills according to his nature. If he did not, he could send all who are in heaven to hell on a whim. His nature will not allow for this.

 

[Dave G]

What is the position of God's Omnipotence and Sovereignty?

Fully omnipotent, and fully sovereign.
What He says is His word and to be taken as such, and what He wills, ultimately gets done.

for example Could God run creation in a NON-Calvinist way if he ordains it so?

Utilyan,

Please re-read your question and ask yourself, " Do I truly understand how God runs creation right now?"
Then ask yourself, " Does God run creation according to how the "Wesleyan Arminian" or the "Traditionalist" describes it, or does He run it the way the "Calvinist" describes it?"
Personally, I think that you've already answered that.

So have I, and many times.
According to the Bible, God runs creation according to His own purposes...

How salvation is accomplished and how He rules the world from His throne, are all intertwined.
His word is very specific about it:

" ...who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: " ( Ephesians 1:11 ).

" and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).

"Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Job 9:12 )

"But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).

" ...I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." ( Romans 9:15 ).


There are also many more passages that establish that God's will gets done, even if it doesn't seem to us like it does.

 

[Dave G]

In the above, I see that:

God's will determines who is saved, and God's will determines who is born again ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
God's will determines which of us, as God-hating sinners, goes to Hell and which of us He pardons.

But despite the fact that many people question whether or not "Calvinism" is correct, there's something else that I see in all the objections to it.
From the "non-Calvinist" ( to me, non-biblical ) position, I think that the over-riding question should be, " Does God allow rebellious sinners to influence where God sends them?"...
Not necessarily, "What must I do to be saved?"

Rather than approaching God with an attitude that says, "I've offended You, how can I be reconciled to You?", plenty of professing Christians seem to want to approach God with an attitude of, " How can I get You to do my bidding and stop You from casting me into Hell, where I don't want to go?"

Personally, I've seen the difference between people whose attitudes about God are more self-serving than God-serving, in that religious people think that they have satisfied God's "requirements", and He is now "off their backs"...

While genuinely saved people are grateful that they are now at peace with Him.

 

[Dave G]

Could God run a NON-Calvinist system if he wanted to? Could GOD ordain free will in a NON-Calvinist manner?

He could have, but He didn't.

Or is God limited and forced to do things by the Calvinist tradition?

Is He limited and forced to do things according to the "Arminian" / "Traditionalist" tradition...what most professing believers seem to think is the correct way?

 

[loDebar]

Free Will in the common understanding = two sovereigns. But also consider God does not have a free will. If he did, we could not trust him. We have faith in him because we know he wills according to his nature. If he did not, he could send all who are in heaven to hell on a whim. His nature will not allow for this.

God has Free Will and can execute His Will as He chooses. We trust Him because He loves us. He choose to offer us redemption and reconciliation.

We are already condemned to Hell, He died for us to give a pardon. He wants us not to go there, This is a second chance to avoid Hell. He wants us to repent and for us to choose not to go to Hell.

You go not know who you are and why you are here,

Many are deceived, some more easily than others

 

[Dave G]

As for the chart @1689Dave posted,
Here is what I think it represents:

It is a summary, from the "Calvinist" perspective, of the predominant teachings of the Bible with regard to how salvation is accomplished and to whom it is promised.

It summarizes what the "Wesleyan" / modern "Arminian" teaches very well.
It already encompasses what "Traditionalists" teach in the first 4 "points" on the "Arminian" side, as well as the last "point" on the "Calvinist" side...which I believe to be accurately represented, having sat under those teachings for over 25 years.

Despite objections from the "Traditionalist" side, the fact remains that many on the "Arminian" side have embraced it ( or something similar to it: An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism ), while "Traditionalists" seem to fight it and adamantly maintain that they are neither.

As I see it, straddling the fence means that they are both.

Teaching and preaching that man's will affects his own salvation, and then turning right around and stating that God, by His own power, keeps those who believe all the way to their deaths and resurrections, is a mixture of what the Bible teaches and what it does not.

It takes man's will and leaves it open to receive Him ( despite Scripture to the contrary ), but then admits that God's will over-rides man's will "once saved", and His children are safe in Him ( which Scripture states ).

This makes me ask them this question...
" Does God over-ride man's will none of the time, part of the time, or all of the time? "

To me, despite Daniel 4:35, it's only part of the time.

 

[1689Dave]

God has Free Will and can execute His Will as He chooses. We trust Him because He loves us. He choose to offer us redemption and reconciliation.

We are already condemned to Hell, He died for us to give a pardon. He wants us not to go there, This is a second chance to avoid Hell. He wants us to repent and for us to choose not to go to Hell.

You go not know who you are and why you are here,

Many are deceived, some more easily than others

Think about it. Can God will to change his nature? It's because he does not have free will that we are not consumed.

““For I, the Lord, do not change [have no free will]; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6 (NASB95)

 

[Dave G]

He wants us not to go there,

If He wants us not to go there, then man's will supercedes God's will.

Either God decides to limit His will with regard to mankind, or He does not.
If He does, then something holds Him back from getting what He wants...that "something" being His own will, or man's will.
Are you following?

To me, you've just made a contradictory statement.
God wants something, but can't get it.
Why?

Is He bound by agreement to men, or is He bound by agreement to Himself?
Do you know of Scripture that declares that "God will not step over the line" of man's will, rather than it being assumed?
I'm not aware of any.

Where is this de-facto agreement stated, that God stands by and lets men make the decision?
I think it's assumed, but never declared.

I also think that just because enough people repeat something and believe it, does not make it true.

 

[Dave G]

This is a second chance to avoid Hell.

How?
By performing a requirement?

Where I come from, that's called "works".
Performing requirements makes the person who imposed them, obligated to reward the person for meeting the requirement.
This takes the gift of eternal life, and turns it into a reward for performance...not a gracious gift bestowed out of no obligation.

He wants us to repent and for us to choose not to go to Hell.

Please see my first point in post # 72.

If He wants us to repent, what is stopping Him from getting His will done?
Our will or His will?
If our will, then this makes us stronger than Him.

He is no longer All-powerful and All-mighty.
He is now subservient to men.

Is this situation declared in Scripture, or simply assumed?
I believe it to be assumed.

In the end, assumption is not good ground to be standing on.
Implication should also never be trusted, especially with regard to what His word says.

 

[InTheLight]

But also consider God does not have a free will. If he did, we could not trust him.

Think about it. Can God will to change his nature? It's because he does not have free will that we are not consumed.

““For I, the Lord, do not change [have no free will]; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6 (NASB95)

When God converts a sinner and translates him into a state of grace, He frees his will to do spiritually good things. Is this not correct?

I have been told countless times on BB that "free will" means someone is no longer under the natural bondage of the will to do sin.

These are classic Calvinists definitions of free will.

Yet you say God, who is grace, and God, who cannot sin, does not have free will. You are saying God is not free to will and free to do that which is spiritually good.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[loDebar]

Think about it. Can God will to change his nature? It's because he does not have free will that we are not consumed.

““For I, the Lord, do not change [have no free will]; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.” Malachi 3:6 (NASB95)

Dave this is concerning,
you think, God's will is in opposition to His nature? how ludicrous, We are here because of His nature and will and LOVE

You are audacious enough to question God's will?

God's redeems us and you question His ability to choice to save or desire for us to be saved?

The verse says, God does not change or the nation would not be destroyed. They reserved to be destroyed then but God chose to continue with His plan yet you turn it completion around to suggest He had to accept their evil ways or change redemption through Christ,

Did not the Nation be destroyed to punish sin and rebuilt ?

 

[loDebar]

How?
By performing a requirement?

Where I come from, that's called "works".
Performing requirements makes the person who imposed them, obligated to reward the person for meeting the requirement.
This takes the gift of eternal life, and turns it into a reward for performance...not a gracious gift bestowed out of no obligation.

Please see my first point in post # 72.

If He wants us to repent, what is stopping Him from getting His will done?
Our will or His will?
If our will, then this makes us stronger than Him.

He is no longer All-powerful and All-mighty.
He is now subservient to men.

Is this situation declared in Scripture, or simply assumed?
I believe it to be assumed.

In the end, assumption is not good ground to be standing on.
Implication should also never be trusted, especially with regard to what His word says.

You , people, are stopping Him from redeeming ALL, sinners.

He limits His love to our free will choices. Love is a choice, to disobey Him is a choice, to disappoint Him is a choice.

The requirement is to repent and accept His pardon.

 

[loDebar]

Free Will operates within and without Salvation or Service. The choices or understanding may change in our Free Will to make good or bad choices

 

[1689Dave]

Dave this is concerning,
you think, God's will is in opposition to His nature? how ludicrous, We are here because of His nature and will and LOVE

You are audacious enough to question God's will?

God's redeems us and you question His ability to choice to save or desire for us to be saved?

The verse says, God does not change or the nation would not be destroyed. They reserved to be destroyed then but God chose to continue with His plan yet you turn it completion around to suggest He had to accept their evil ways or change redemption through Christ,

Did not the Nation be destroyed to punish sin and rebuilt ?

If you think God has a free will and can violate his nature, you have no basis for faith.

 

[InTheLight]

If you think God has a free will and can violate his nature, you have no basis for faith.

So, your definition of free will = ability to violate your nature.

Is that correct?

 

[utilyan]

He could have, but He didn't.

Is He limited and forced to do things according to the "Arminian" / "Traditionalist" tradition...what most professing believers seem to think is the correct way?

He can do what he wants, He can do it Calvinist way too.

That's what I wanted to hear Dave. I think admitting so is good first step. Infinity of time is a long time. Robots would be quite boring.

Sometimes I get the impression you guys think God can't win a chess match unless he moves your pieces for you. Nor could he delegate control of things.