Featured Biblical Penal Substitution

My post #18 speaks to that, just FYI.

 

I found it. Thanks for the insight.

I’ve been trying to understand the difference between “for us” and “instead of us”.

My son made an interesting observation. He said the difference lies in the reason behind the act. That makes sense to me.

If Jesus died “instead of us” then the primary reason for the cross is appeasing the wrath of the Father and demonstrating His holiness and judgement. The secondary effect is providing salvation to those that believe.

If Jesus died “for us” then the primary reason for the cross is the redemption and salvation of His chosen people. The secondary effect is satisfying God the Father’s wrath, Holiness, judgement.

Peace to you

 

Those holding to Pst would not see spiritual death of Jesus, as that would be word of faith heresy, and bible clear that God has stored up his wrath towards sins and sinners, so how would that be propitiated and appeased except by Pst?

 

Whatever else happened on that Cross, Pst had to be done and accomplished first!

 

Word of faith, as they were 'revealed" that Jesus suffered spiritual death on Cross, took on Satan nature, went to hell, and had to get born again!

 

Pst incudes wrath of God involved, other does not, as somehow they would see it "not right" for Jesus to be still righteousness and forced to suffer in our stead!

 

For God to be both Holy and judge and freely justify lost sinners, someone must die in judgement for our sins!

 

And to be honest--Most of us only learned one view of the atonement and it's difficult to "unlearn" and "relearn"...checking our presuppositions and preunderstandings at the door before we engage in "listening" during these discussions is quite difficult for anyone, myself included. Especially when pride rears its ugly head and says what i learned "has to be right".

 

I think we need to pause here a minute.
The preposition generally used and translated 'for' in the relevant passages is huper, which means 'on behalf of.' as in Galatians 2:20 and 3:13. for example Now if I buy pay a bill on your behalf (not likely to happen!), I pay it and you don't. If Christ suffers on our behalf, He suffers and we don't. That is substitution and if a penalty is involved, it is penal substitution. Let's look at Galatians 3:13. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for [Gk. huper] us.' He becomes a curse and we don't. That's penal substitution.

There are some places where the preposition anti is used. It tends to mean 'over against' or 'instead of.' Luke 11:11. '...Will he for [Gk. anti. 'instead of''] a fish give him a serpent?' Now look at Mark 10:45 or Matthew 20:28. '.....And give His life a ransom for [Gk. anti] many.' The ransom is paid to God's justice. Christ pays it; we don't. Penal Substitution.

There are several other Greek prepositions translated 'for' but I think these two are the most important.

 

Caveat--it (Gk. huper) sometimes means "on behalf of". Other times, most of the times, it does not.

 

I think one of the clearest examples of this is Romans 5:8

God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.

So, if we say Christ died in our place, He died physically so we wouldn't have to? But we still do die physically. So, Him taking our place does not seem like a good interpretation here.

However, if we say "Christ died for our benefit" here, then the passage makes sense. Look at the context.

Rarely does anyone die for a righteous man. That's not talking about "in his place" but for him, to benefit him or his cause.

A soldier can die "for his country", but He does not die "in place of" his country.

 

I'm sorry; this is wrong. Because of what Christ has done on my behalf, I have eternal life - right now! "Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes My word and believes Him who sent Me has [right now] everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life" (John 5:24; c.f. John 8:51-52). I have already died with Christ (Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:3 etc.), and I have been raised with Him and am seated with Him in the heavenly places (Ephesians 2:5-6 etc.). It is true that at some point I shall shuffle off this mortal coil, but I have eternal life right here and now, and I trust that you do also.

I disagree, absolutely. All sorts of people have died to save others, dying instead of them. That is what Christ has done.

This is true so far as it goes, but a soldier can die for his comrades, "in place of" them, and many have. Jesus Christ did not die for any particular country; He suffered and died for sinners - in their place, the place of punishment, instead of them.

One thing I know beyond any doubt: if the Lord Jesus has not paid the penalty for my sins in full, I shall have to pay for them myself, and that I could never do though I spend an eternity in hell.

 

Proper Hermeneutics doesn't agree with your assessment, brother.

 

But as I have pointed out, it can also mean instead of. If I pay a bill on your behalf, I pay it, you don't; I pay it instead of you.
If I am due to speak in court, a lawyer can do it on my behalf; he speaks, I don't. And so on and so on.

 

I think you'll find they do.