Postincarnate Christ

[Yeshua1]

I’ll disagree with you. Our “real being” , our humanity, is made up of both physical and spiritual. When Jesus took on humanity, He added it all and He added humanity to His deity forever.

The verses you cited show that when the physical body dies, the spirit lives on. That is why Abraham and Moses and the rest are still alive.

There is no way, imo, to deny the meaning of “resurrection” in the context that it is used in reference to Jesus and ourselves. You acknowledge Jesus was physically resurrected, but deny that physical body remained.

In essence, the argument is whether Jesus, and by extension those that are resurrected in Christ, will have physical bodies? I agree they are transformed bodies but maintain they are physical.

Yes, at least some angels have physical bodies.

peace to you

orthodox Theology affirms the bodily physical resurrection of Jesus and us!

 

[Yeshua1]

I gave several verses in the OP that strongly imply that Jesus is now no longer in the flesh. No one addressed them. What does "in the days of His flesh" mean to you?

And, yes, it is a big issue.
If we are mistaken on the body of Christ we are mistaken on the nature of His return.
And the time of His return, overlooking that it already happened.
And then - because we are mistakenly waiting for a still-future return of a physical return of Christ and a physical kingdom of God to be issued in - we ignore or greatly downplay the present reality of the Kingdom now.
And doing this, because "this is all going to burn up anyway" we tend to disattach from this world instead of being salt and light like we are supposed to be.

No, there is no single text that says His body changed. There are several texts that, taken together, prove the point. Likewise there is no single text that proves the Trinity.

Jesus affirmed that he was physically resurrected, and Bible affirms that he will be bring us back with Him to experience same physical resurrection at his second coming!

 

[Yeshua1]

That is flirting with the spirit of antichrist:

1Jn_4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Yes, I understand that you're not denying that at one point he was flesh, but that's why I said "flirting".

he seems to be stating laid aside that flesh and humanity, and just God again now!

 

[George Antonios]

None save Jesus have been resurrected yet!

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[Yeshua1]

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Do not think that they were in glorified bodies though!

 

[George Antonios]

Do not think that they were in glorified bodies though!

Why not? They're the first fruits and raised on this side of the cross. They were thereafter led on high by Christ (Eph.4).

 

[37818]

If Christ is no more flesh and blood, then he is no more the Son of God because the term Son is a reference to his humanity.

It is my understanding He now as a man in His resurrected human body is fleah and bone, Luke 24:39, no longer flesh and blood, 1 Corinthians 15:50.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is my understanding He now as a man in His resurrected human body is fleah and bone, Luke 24:39, no longer flesh and blood, 1 Corinthians 15:50.

Same body that he was born in, just now glorified!

 

[canadyjd]

Why not? They're the first fruits and raised on this side of the cross. They were thereafter led on high by Christ (Eph.4).

Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection. He had not been resurrected at that point. Like Lazarus, those saints died afterward.

peace to you

 

[percho]

Why not? They're the first fruits and raised on this side of the cross. They were thereafter led on high by Christ (Eph.4).

I would have thought the man after God's own heart would have been with them yet he wasn't. Acts 2:29

 

[percho]

Oh please.

Do you not understand that we must always get our truth from the Bible? If I really was flirting with the antichrist then you would have Scripture to prove your point. What you are basing your assessment of me on is man-made tradition, not Scripture.

Not one of the responders here gave an answer to the verses I gave for my position. I will ask you what I have already asked others here, What does "the days of His flesh" mean?

What does "the days of His flesh" mean?

for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth; John 1:14
but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, Gal 4:4

for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it (The Blood) to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby

see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.' Luke 24:39 YLT------------ No Blood--- What is the soul of the flesh now in?

because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in <to or unto) the (dative> flesh, and having been made alive in <to or unto) the (dative > spirit,

To date only one living soul born of woman has been raised from out of the dead in the following manner therefore it applies to the last Adam, Christ.
so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

Flesh and blood did not inherit the kingdom of God but flesh (spiritual) and bones did.
in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; Heb 1:2 YLT
having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they. For to which of the messengers said He ever, 'My Son thou art -- I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, 'I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?' Heb 1:4,5 YLT

and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ -- if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 6:17 YLT
and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, 1 Cor 15:23 YLT

 

[percho]

Please think this over. Did the saints in Christ in ages past lose their humanity when they died? Because they surely were not physical after they died.

The irreducible aspect of humanity is not physical. Flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

Question: Did Moses or David cease to be human when they died? Yes or no.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:51-53

Have they experienced that? Must they experience that? If yes, why must they experience that? Can they be construed as being evermore with the Lord without experiencingthat See 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What is on one side of, "then," and what is on the other side?

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Cor 5:1-3

Do Named souls, kinetic being's, Larry, Curly and Mo or Moses and David if you will, require a house either temporary and or permanent?

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection. He had not been resurrected at that point. Like Lazarus, those saints died afterward.

peace to you

Yes, as only Jesus has been glorified so far!

 

[asterisktom]

My point is that not all resurrection verses have the same meaning. The word can have two meanings, either a physical resurrection in the case of Jesus or a resurrection out of Hades (Sheol) which is what happened at the Parousia, AD 70 or a few years earlier.

Thinking this over some more, I believe there are three different uses of "resurrection" if we are to include the bringing back to life of Lazarus, the Nain widow's son, and those who came up when the graves were opened after Christ's resurrection. But I do not think the word "resurrection" is explicitly used for those. At any rate all of those died again, so they are clearly a different type of resurrection than that of Jesus or the saints.

 

[asterisktom]

I’ll disagree with you. Our “real being” , our humanity, is made up of both physical and spiritual.

If this is true then, according to your logic, Moses, David, and all those who died ceased to be human,= since they ceased to be physical. You said later that their "spirit lives on". Agreed, but they are for a good while without a body, non-physical by your definition in your first paragraph they are no longer human.

Yes, at least some angels have physical bodies.

Reference please.

 

[asterisktom]

I have no idea. Scripture is silent, so speculation is an empty guess in this matter. However we can state what we do know for certain from Scripture:

1. Moses had a body when he lived.
2. Moses died and was buried.
3. Moses had a body when he returned at Jesus' Transfiguration.

I am not asking for Scripture. I am just asking for logic. If it is shown that saints - or anyone - dies they have no body, just, spirit then one of two things must be true:
1. They cease to be human or
2. They are still human - and thus physicality is not the essential part of humanity. And Christ being the mediator, "the Man Christ Jesus" does not require Him to be in physical form.

Just because something is POSSIBLE, does not mean that it is TRUE.

Of course. My only purpose for the above was to show that the verse in Timothy, or verses like it, do not prove that Christ is physical now.

The proof of Christ being non-physical now is in a number of verses consider together. We can arrive at this conclusion in the same way we arrive at the proof for the Trinity where, likewise, no one single verse is enough.

Why would Jesus deliberately misrepresent the afterlife as having physical substance if He knew for certain that it did not?

How is this deliberate misrepresentation? There is no hint of physicality here. You are reading that into the passage.

 

[asterisktom]

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:51-53

Have they experienced that? Must they experience that? If yes, why must they experience that? Can they be construed as being evermore with the Lord without experiencingthat See 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

What is on one side of, "then," and what is on the other side?

What is often overlooked in the passages you cite is audience and time relevance. It was written to that generation. The return of Christ, the emptying of Hades, the rapture of the living saints all happened. So, if I understand your last question correctly, all of this is on the other side, the pre AD 70 side.

This does not lessen the hope for us, because we also will follow in their footsteps, so to speak, when we die.

 

[asterisktom]

In 1 Cor. 15:40 we come to a very important, oft-overlooked, detail. Overlooked in application, the origins of these two Adams. (Skipping v. 46 for this post):

"The first man is of the earth (ἐκ γῆς), earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven (ἐξ οὐρανοῦ) ."

This passage is a continuation of verse 40: somata epigeia and somata epourania now become "ek ges" and "ex ouranou". This preposition (ek, ex - the forms only differ because of euphonics) shows origin. Adam came from the earth, from the dust. This brings to mind the very passage from Genesis. The "Second Adam" came from heaven. Note: In both cases, the origins determine the essence of who these two are - and (v. 48) the essence of their "followers".

Verse 49 says that "we shall [or "let us"] bear the image of the heavenly man" (the Second Adam, from heaven).

Now here is the Preterist application:

We shall be like Christ.
And what is Christ like - according to this passage? He is like He was when He came to Earth. He is spiritual.
Was Christ fleshly before he came here to Earth? No. He was pure Spirit.
We - according to this passage - will also be like Him.
Individual spiritual bodies.

We cannot have part Adam's essence ("dust") and part Christ's, seeing that we could not then "enter into the Kingdom of God". "Dust" has to do with "flesh and blood", not spirit.

 

[atpollard]

How is this deliberate misrepresentation? There is no hint of physicality here. You are reading that into the passage.

[Luke 16:22-26 NASB] 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and [that] none may cross over from there to us.'

• Physical forms are carried, non-corporeal spirits are not.
• Physical eyes are implied
• A physical finger is explicitly stated.
• Physical water is explicitly stated.
• A physical tongue is explicitly stated.
• (Placing water on a tongue with a finger supports the eyes looking up also being physical)
• The agony appears to be real, as does the flame ... which suggests a real body suffering real pain in real fire.
• A great chasm is a physical obstacle that would only stop physical bodies. Spirits are able to cross chasms.

There is most definitely far more than a "hint" of physicality in this story.
My objection stands, why would Jesus deliberately misrepresent the afterlife if he knew that there was no physical form beyond death?

 

[canadyjd]

If this is true then, according to your logic, Moses, David, and all those who died ceased to be human,= since they ceased to be physical. You said later that their "spirit lives on". Agreed, but they are for a good while without a body, non-physical by your definition in your first paragraph they are no longer human.

Reference please.

The angels at the tomb of Jesus were said to look like men.

peace to you