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Featured Does God Ordain Our Sins?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by ThyWordIsTruth, Aug 27, 2020.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not. I was answering how God can ordain without being the cause.

    But since you bring it up, I guess you could say that God "approves" of the events (not necessarily the sin) as they are a part of His plan. The killing of Christ was evil (Acts 3) and those responsible were guilty of evil, but His death was in accordance with God's predetermined plan.
     
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  2. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I keep underlining the part where the Westminster Confession of Faith makes a very poignant statement about God not causing sin.
    Did you miss that?
    I reacted much the same way when I first heard this statement.
    Now?
    I agree with it, for the most part...except for the "pleased" part.
    How?
    Based on my studies, I have come to the understanding that the Lord has worked all things according to the counsel of His own will.
    That's all events, from the beginning of the world to the end of it, He rules over all of it and has the power to either permit them, or step in and effect His will wherever and whenever He wishes.

    Therefore, He not only knew the Fall was going to happen, He provided His Son as a sacrifice for those that He would save.
     
    #22 Dave G, Aug 27, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2020
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't answer your question directly, but I do know of a place in the Bible where Someone is responsible for ordaining something:

    " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

    ...and yes, I also see that the sovereignty of God over all things is a very difficult subject to understand, my friend.
    It's taken the Lord many years to show me what He has shown me, by His grace.:Notworthy
     
  4. ThyWordIsTruth

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    The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a "necessary evil", that God did "allow", though I could not agree that God "approved" of this. He daily "disapproves" of mankind sinning, yet He never could "agree" with this. These are mysteries that our limited, sinful finite minds will never comprehend, like the origin of all evil.
     
  5. ThyWordIsTruth

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    No, I did not miss it. However, the language used as in God "ordaining all things that comes to pass", speaks for itself, which makes God the author of sin, regardless of the explanations to deny this.
     
  6. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Yet, they specifically deny the very thing it seems that you are objecting to.
    Look at it more carefully, sir.

    Please keep in mind that when it comes to the Confession, I do not agree with parts of it, and it's mostly because of the language.
    I'm simply trying to be objective here.;)
     
  7. ThyWordIsTruth

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    Are you suggesting that by using the term "ordain", the Confession did not mean this? Then, why would they use a term that they did not agree with?
     
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure.
    I wasn't there to ask them. ;)

    At any rate, I wish you well, sir.
    I've said about all I can on the subject, and I believe I've listed at least one of the Scriptures that clearly shows that God is not the author of sin.

    May God bless you in your studies of His word...
    and in all your trials and tribulations may you always remember that he promises to deliver His children and they will glorify Him.:)
     
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  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    This is saying that the Lord was please to take the fall of Adam and turn it around for His greater glory and for the good of his own, as He already had the Cross of Christ prepared from eternity past!
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    he ordained what would be the end result from that Fall,m as in the Cross and future restoration of His creation!
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    From the viewpoint of God we are eternally secured and justified in Jesus,as to relationship, but we still must confess our sins to receive the restoration of fellowship!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All that we can do is to know that God cannot and does not cause any to do sin and evil, its their "free will" doing that!
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Cross was always in the decrees of God, but God still used the decisions of sinners to nail Jesus on that Cross!
     
  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    We pray "lead us not into temptation" because he does. He energizes every sin people or the Devil commit for his glory and every righteous act just the same.

    He made all sinners in Adam and directs every sin that follows.
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The issue is Scripture says that evil was according to the predetermined plan of God. When I say "approve" this is what I mean. Even our sin does not trump the plan of God. I want to be very clear that I am not saying that in any way God tempts us or leads us into sin. We create our own sin.
     
  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I agree... God the Father was always protecting his Son until the hour of his death came... Then he lifted his protection and allowed the reason he came into the world to take place... His trial, scourging, crucifixion and death... It was Gods decree he died for us... When they came to take him in the garden he said:

    Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


    Brother Glen:)
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus kept referencing 'His hour", as in not came yet, or is now here!
     
  18. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    So God lifted his protection, " My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me,
    and from the words of my roaring?" for my (our) benefit?
    And can it be that I should gain?
     
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  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Rather than “lifted,” I like to use the word “withheld.”
     
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  20. ThyWordIsTruth

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    This translation of the Greek is incorrect. The word is the Greek noun, "πειρασμός", which literally means, "specifically, the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy, etc.", without "enticement to sin", though it can be also used in this sense. If, as we know from James, that God does not tempt us (1:13), then it cannot be said that the word as used in Matthew 6:13, does have the meaning that the Lord does lead us into temptation. This is a moral impossibility for the Holy God of the Bible! The Good News Bible actually reads the nearest to the Greek, "Do not bring us to hard testing, but keep us safe from the Evil One"
     
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