Does God Ordain Our Sins?

[JonC]

so are you saying that God actually "approves" of our sins? In which case, they cannot be sins!

I'm not. I was answering how God can ordain without being the cause.

But since you bring it up, I guess you could say that God "approves" of the events (not necessarily the sin) as they are a part of His plan. The killing of Christ was evil (Acts 3) and those responsible were guilty of evil, but His death was in accordance with God's predetermined plan.

 

[Dave G]

can you please clarify what you think I have missed?

I keep underlining the part where the Westminster Confession of Faith makes a very poignant statement about God not causing sin.
Did you miss that?

In chapter 6 of this Confession, it states:

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory."

It says that God was PLEASED to have ORDERED the fall for His Glory!!!

This is utter blashpemy!!!

I reacted much the same way when I first heard this statement.
Now?
I agree with it, for the most part...except for the "pleased" part.
How?
Based on my studies, I have come to the understanding that the Lord has worked all things according to the counsel of His own will.
That's all events, from the beginning of the world to the end of it, He rules over all of it and has the power to either permit them, or step in and effect His will wherever and whenever He wishes.

Therefore, He not only knew the Fall was going to happen, He provided His Son as a sacrifice for those that He would save.

 

[Dave G]

Can you or anyone show me from the use of "ordain" in the English language, where it means that the person who does the "ordaining", is not responsible for their actions?

This doesn't answer your question directly, but I do know of a place in the Bible where Someone is responsible for ordaining something:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).

...and yes, I also see that the sovereignty of God over all things is a very difficult subject to understand, my friend.
It's taken the Lord many years to show me what He has shown me, by His grace.

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

I'm not. I was answering how God can ordain without being the cause.

But since you bring it up, I guess you could say that God "approves" of the events (not necessarily the sin) as they are a part of His plan. The killing of Christ was evil (Acts 3) and those responsible were guilty of evil, but His death was in accordance with God's predetermined plan.

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a "necessary evil", that God did "allow", though I could not agree that God "approved" of this. He daily "disapproves" of mankind sinning, yet He never could "agree" with this. These are mysteries that our limited, sinful finite minds will never comprehend, like the origin of all evil.

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

I keep underlining the part where the Westminster Confession of Faith makes a very poignant statement about God not causing sin.
Did you miss that?

No, I did not miss it. However, the language used as in God "ordaining all things that comes to pass", speaks for itself, which makes God the author of sin, regardless of the explanations to deny this.

 

[Dave G]

However, the language used as in God "ordaining all things that comes to pass", speaks for itself, which makes God the author of sin, regardless of the explanations to deny this.

Yet, they specifically deny the very thing it seems that you are objecting to.
Look at it more carefully, sir.

Please keep in mind that when it comes to the Confession, I do not agree with parts of it, and it's mostly because of the language.
I'm simply trying to be objective here.

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

Yet, they specifically deny the very thing it seems that you are objecting to.

Are you suggesting that by using the term "ordain", the Confession did not mean this? Then, why would they use a term that they did not agree with?

 

[Dave G]

Are you suggesting that by using the term "ordain", the Confession did not mean this? Then, why would they use a term that they did not agree with?

I'm not sure.
I wasn't there to ask them.

At any rate, I wish you well, sir.
I've said about all I can on the subject, and I believe I've listed at least one of the Scriptures that clearly shows that God is not the author of sin.

May God bless you in your studies of His word...
and in all your trials and tribulations may you always remember that he promises to deliver His children and they will glorify Him.

 

[Yeshua1]

In chapter 6 of this Confession, it states:

"Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory."

It says that God was PLEASED to have ORDERED the fall for His Glory!!!

This is utter blashpemy!!!

To be "pleased" with something is to be "satisfied and content", with it!

The Holy Bible very clearly says, that God was "‛âtsab" by the sins of man, as in Genesis 6:6. Where the Hebrew verb denotes, "hurt, pain, grieve". No where in the entire Bible do we ever read that God was PLEASED to allow the fall of Adam and Eve, which was a very grave SIN!

This is saying that the Lord was please to take the fall of Adam and turn it around for His greater glory and for the good of his own, as He already had the Cross of Christ prepared from eternity past!

 

[Yeshua1]

Can you or anyone show me from the use of "ordain" in the English language, where it means that the person who does the "ordaining", is not responsible for their actions? If, as the Confession of Faith states, that God has "ordained" these, then it makes Him their "author". This is what the word has meant from the time it was coined!


Origin of ordain
1250–1300; Middle English ordeinen<Old French ordener<Latin ordināre to order, arrange, appoint. See ordination (Definition of ordain | Dictionary.com)

he ordained what would be the end result from that Fall,m as in the Cross and future restoration of His creation!

 

[Yeshua1]

I could be wrong here, but from my understanding of what you have written, it reads that any sins that a Christian comits, because they are included in the Cross/Blood of Jesus, they are automatically forgiven, and there is no need to repent of our sins after our conversion?

From the viewpoint of God we are eternally secured and justified in Jesus,as to relationship, but we still must confess our sins to receive the restoration of fellowship!

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you suggesting that by using the term "ordain", the Confession did not mean this? Then, why would they use a term that they did not agree with?

All that we can do is to know that God cannot and does not cause any to do sin and evil, its their "free will" doing that!

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not. I was answering how God can ordain without being the cause.

But since you bring it up, I guess you could say that God "approves" of the events (not necessarily the sin) as they are a part of His plan. The killing of Christ was evil (Acts 3) and those responsible were guilty of evil, but His death was in accordance with God's predetermined plan.

The Cross was always in the decrees of God, but God still used the decisions of sinners to nail Jesus on that Cross!

 

[1689Dave]

The opening statement to chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is entitled, "Of God's Eternal Decree", we read:

"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"

It then goes on to say, "yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

Now, either God has ordained "whatsoever comes to pass", or He has not.

The Reformed theologian, Dr Wayne Grudem, among others, has this to say:

"In Spite of All of the Foregoing Statements, We Have to Come to the Point Where We Confess That We Do Not Understand How It Is That God Can Ordain That We Carry Out Evil Deeds and Yet Hold Us Accountable for Them and Not be Blamed Himself: We can affirm that all of these things are true, because Scripture teaches them. But Scripture does not tell us exactly how God brings this situation about or how it can be that God holds us accountable for what he ordains to come to pass. Here Scripture is silent, and we have to agree with Berkhof that ultimately “the problem of God’s relation to sin remains a mystery.” (Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology p. 175.”

(Systematic Theology, p.330. 1994, 2000 edition)

On the word "ordain" we are told that it means, "to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law...destine, foreordain" (Websters)

If, as it is claimed by Calvinists/Reformed, that Almighty God "ordains", or "decrees" that us humans "carry out evil deeds", which are sinful, and we do so. Is it morally right, that this same God, Who actually "orders" that we do this, can then hold US accountable for carrying out HIS actions, and punish US??? This teaching is abhorrent, and blashphemous, and goes aganinst the very Holy Nature of the God of the Holy Bible!

So, by the teachings of the Calvinists/Reformed, it is Almighty God, Who "ordains" that we murder, commit adultery, rape, steal, and carry out every form of heinous sins, and though we are doing what God so "orders" that we do, YET, He holds US responsible for these sinful acts, and punishes US for doing what HE has so "ordained"???

This "doctrine" is what the Apostle Paul calls, "doctrines of demons", as its origin is from the pit of hell, and the devil himself!

God does indeed "permit/allow" that we sin, and this is OUR choosing; but can NEVER "ordain" that we do so. There is a huge difference.

We pray "lead us not into temptation" because he does. He energizes every sin people or the Devil commit for his glory and every righteous act just the same.

He made all sinners in Adam and directs every sin that follows.

 

[JonC]

The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was a "necessary evil", that God did "allow", though I could not agree that God "approved" of this. He daily "disapproves" of mankind sinning, yet He never could "agree" with this. These are mysteries that our limited, sinful finite minds will never comprehend, like the origin of all evil.

The issue is Scripture says that evil was according to the predetermined plan of God. When I say "approve" this is what I mean. Even our sin does not trump the plan of God. I want to be very clear that I am not saying that in any way God tempts us or leads us into sin. We create our own sin.

 

[tyndale1946]

The Cross was always in the decrees of God, but God still used the decisions of sinners to nail Jesus on that Cross!

I agree... God the Father was always protecting his Son until the hour of his death came... Then he lifted his protection and allowed the reason he came into the world to take place... His trial, scourging, crucifixion and death... It was Gods decree he died for us... When they came to take him in the garden he said:

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Brother Glen

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree... God the Father was always protecting his Son until the hour of his death came... Then he lifted his protection and allowed the reason he came into the world to take place... His trial, scourging, crucifixion and death... It was Gods decree he died for us... When they came to take him in the garden he said:

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Brother Glen

Jesus kept referencing 'His hour", as in not came yet, or is now here!

 

[SGO]

So God lifted his protection, " My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me,
and from the words of my roaring?" for my (our) benefit?
And can it be that I should gain?

 

[agedman]

So God lifted his protection, " My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me,
and from the words of my roaring?" for my (our) benefit?
And can it be that I should gain?

Rather than “lifted,” I like to use the word “withheld.”

 

[ThyWordIsTruth]

We pray "lead us not into temptation" because he does

This translation of the Greek is incorrect. The word is the Greek noun, "πειρασμός", which literally means, "specifically, the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy, etc.", without "enticement to sin", though it can be also used in this sense. If, as we know from James, that God does not tempt us (1:13), then it cannot be said that the word as used in Matthew 6:13, does have the meaning that the Lord does lead us into temptation. This is a moral impossibility for the Holy God of the Bible! The Good News Bible actually reads the nearest to the Greek, "Do not bring us to hard testing, but keep us safe from the Evil One"