When Churchianity fails you . . .

Be careful about being outside the camp. When we read about God's chosen people, wandering in the wilderness, we see that God lives in the midst with the 12 tribes organized around the tabernacle. People who lived outside the camp were unclean and removed from fellowship.

Hebrews 12:22-24,28
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.

Notice then the reason why Jesus was outside the camp and why we follow. Jesus was killed outside the camp as our atoning sacrifice. As followers of Christ who are "in Christ" we are with Christ.

Hebrews 13:13
Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.

I do not think you are understanding that God calls us to be members of a local body, regardless of whether it is a house church or a local church. When we attend as members we are coming to the assembly, joining all the saints in heaven. A rogue Christian is living outside the will of God for fellowship and accountability with his brothers and sisters.

 

This, then, is eisegesis. You are putting your own interpretation on Heb. 13:13 with no reason. There is nothing in the context about church. The only times ekklesia is used in the whole book of Hebrews is in 2:12 (a quote from Ps. 22:22, hardly about the NT church), and 12:23, very clearly about the assembly of saints in Heaven. So the book of Hebrews is not about the NT church at all. Beyond that, when it was written, all churches were the same--there was not any "organized religion" as you are using the term. So it is impossible exegetically for you to say that we should come out of organized religion according to Heb. 13:13.

Furthermore, look at the immediate context: "11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. 2 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach." No question about it: the author of Hebrews is referring to the burning of the sacrificed animals outside the camp of Israel. In other words, it is a reference to the sacrifice of Christ of Himself for our sins.

Sorry, I can't follow you in such eisegesis. You'll have to do much better than that. And I'm perfectly content with the revelation that is in Scripture. Revelation occurs when God speaks to His people truth that applies to all. There is no need for such truth in addition to the Bible. You are treading on dangerous ground, according to Rev. 22:18-19.

 

Well, now, since Seeker has given his testimony and that of others (none of which speak of souls being saved, the very purpose Christ came to earth), I'll give a short version of mine.

Coincidentally, I too was at Tennessee Temple U. (then a college) when Seeker was--1972 to 1976 (after being two years at another school), graduating in '76. I'm sure I could find him in the annual from those years, which I still have. I then going to Temple Seminary for a semester before going off to work for my grandfather for a year. Then it was off on deputation to go to Japan as a missionary in 1981, meeting my wife and having a son along the way.

I remember TTC as a time of continuous revival under Dr. Lee Roberson. Sure, I occasionally saw some legalism, but that exists everywhere you go. (In fact, remember that Seeker has already called me a legalist on this thread for saying it's a sin to disobey Jesus! ) I remember hearing such greatly used preachers as R. G. Lee preaching "Payday Someday," Richard Wurmbrand (author of Tortured for Christ), E. J. Daniels preaching "God's Three Deadlines," John R. Rice preaching on prayer, and many others.

And the missions emphasis was inspiring. It was in my first semester there that God called me to Japan under the preaching of a good missionary from there. I have never regretted for a single second answering that call and going to Japan for 33 years. The missions conference there would have up to 200 missionary displays, with such God-used missionaries as Don Cisk of Japan, the Corley twins to the Navahos, Dr. Jacob Gartenhaus the Jewish evangelist, and many others. It was incredibly inspiring to one who loved Jesus.

Dr. Roberson himself was so gracious. He visited every single person in that megachurch who went into the hospital (he visited me there) or had other problems. His goal was to make 10 visits a day to lost people when he was in town.

After leaving my grandfather's ministry and starting deputation to go to Japan, it took me 3 1/2 years for God to give the necessary support. Deputation in the "faith missions" model means traveling to churches and presenting your future ministry there. During that time, it was all on faith. I did not ask one single time for money, not a single penny. Yet God brought it all in, enough to live in that very expensive country. It would take too long to detail the answers to prayer received at that time.

All of those years in Japan God took great care of us. After 33 years, the Holy Spirit led in a special, miraculous way (which I will not share here) to come back to the States to train future missionaries and pastors and evangelists and preachers' wives. I had gotten an MA in Biblical Studies in 2005 along with our only son, who then went on for an MDiv and a PhD in NT. We have the glorious privilege of teaching side by side here at our Bible college.

At our "organized religion" church we see prayers answered all the time (just had a big one), which glorifies Christ. We see people saved all the time, which glorifies Christ. We see humble souls bowing at the altar in dedication to the Lord. However, in al of the anti-"organized religion" testimonies Seeker has seen fit to include, not a single soul is saved, not a single testimony about a miracle is there, and not a single prayer is answered. That sounds like churchianity to me, not victorious Christian living that glorifies Christ. It all sounds pretty self-focused, like this--"How wonderful that I was able to find the true way of doing church."

 

We will disagree in that we, the church, are the Israel of God. We can learn much from God's ordinance of life in the 40 years of wandering. The church makes up that camp today.
Second, the structure of elders and deacons can function in many ways. God does not have a rigid system as you demand. One method is not, by ordinance, more Godward than another. You are making your argument from silence, which ultimately is legalistic rather than gracious.
Hebrews expression of being outside the camp does not apply to your claim at all. It is your attempt to pridefully express your approach as Godward while castigating others in the body of Christ. Your accusation of the brothers should give you pause.
I welcome both house churches and organized churches. They are embassies where we hear a message from our King. In that, I rejoice.

 

Is there any biblical support for such?

peace to you

 

Yes, and the Primitive Baptists also oppose the Great Commission as you appear to. My grandfather once tried to talk to two young men about their eternal souls, and their own father prevented this conversation about Jesus Christ. That is utterly shameful. Other hyper-Calvinists also oppose the Great Commission, though normal Calvinists believe in obeying it.

Ultra-dispensationalists also believe the Great Commission is not for us, though they do not believe it is wrong to witness for Christ. Therefore, they teach disobedience to the Great Commission is okay. However, Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19).

 

It seems to be a stretch to believe the appearance of Christ to Saul/Paul to be the standard experience for all Christians.

I met someone who claimed to have met Jesus Face to Face “as real as I’m talking to you now” was how he put it. I’m skeptical, but since he didn’t offer any “revelation” contrary to scripture, who am I to deny another man’s spiritual experience?

peace to you

 

Tell you what, you tell me what I said that was wrong or offensive, and I'll apologize.

In my thinking, I was perfectly logical. You objected to being told that it is a sin to disobey Jesus. Therefore, you do not believe that it is incumbent on Christians to obey the Great Commission. So if I say that is like the hyper-Calvinists or the ultra-dispensationalists, how am I wrong? Now, how can I know "it is just unfair" if you don't tell me. My thinking seems very logical to me.

I'd be happy for you to straighten me out about what you really believe if I've got it wrong.

I have to say, though, that the Great Commission is something incredibly important to me, being Christ's last command. I feel you have "dissed" it. But it is not me to whom you have to answer for that. It's the Lord Jesus who gave it.

 

I always try to base what I believe on scripture. I do believe it is God’s revelation to us.

I’m surprised you have never heard of the Great Commission. Do you not find any guidance in scripture concerning the church?

peace to you

 

I see. I do commend you on your soon-to-be-wife's salvation, etc. Congratulations.

1. So you totally reject the fact that the Greek has the imperative--a command--in the Great Commission. Your attempt at translation is totally mistaken. I translated the entire NT into Japanese, and teach Bible translation at the seminary level. As they used to say, "Don't teach your grandma to suck eggs."
2. My belief that we must follow the commands of Christ is not legalism. That's a ridiculous charge born out of ignorance of theology.
3. The term "Great Commission" not being in the Bible? That's actually your argument? Neither is "trinity," etc. etc. And you get that about Hudson Taylor from often mistaken Wikipedia? College profs don't allow their students to cite it because it is so often mistaken.
4. Sorry about your experience at Temple. But I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for your tears if you didn't simply transfer, like I did to Temple from a different school. I've met many graduates and have many for friends, but they did not have your experience. Met one just the other day who loved Dr. Lee Roberson just as I do.

Tell you what. I'll just leave your thread. Okay? You've not answered several of my arguments anyway, and I doubt if you can. Have a good one.

 

Like you have a revelation?
How can others ascertain your truth?
What scripture can they check?

Bereans searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so.
Acts 17:10

Prove all things.
1 Thessalonians 5:21

...try the spirits whether they are of God.
1John 4:1

Do you consider yourself to be a prophet?

Why did you change your name on this forum?

 

The Bible is God’s truth; given to us by God to test the “spirits”; to compare the claims of revelation by folks professing the name of Jesus.

I get the sense that you and others in the movement oppose anything the “church” has adopted as corrupted by men. By doing this, you are rejecting policies and practice that was put into place by the Apostles of Jesus Christ.

peace to you