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Featured Proof ALL does not mean all men

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Nov 12, 2020.

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  1. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Maybe the issue isn’t with the word “all”, but with the word “father”. Indeed, with four instances of “all” in the same verse, there’s plenty of useful context to query. If you’ve assert that “all” in the verse doesn’t mean “all men”, you also assert that God is NOT over all men. But can God be “father” to all without being “father” to some? Yes, if “father” can have a source meaning as well as an efficacy meaning. John demonstrates both meanings earlier in the chapter.

    John 8:37-38 (KJV) 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed [father defined as source]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father [father defined in terms of efficacy].

    Jesus was a master of equivalence. Try using the different definitions of “father” before you restrict the scope of “all” unnecessarily.
     
    #81 Derf B, Dec 8, 2020
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  2. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Romans 9 clarifies further who are God's children. God's children would have God as their Father.
    Paul specifically excludes the children of the flesh as being God's children, hence God is not their Father

    6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
    7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
    8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
    9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
     
    #82 Scott Downey, Dec 9, 2020
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  3. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Read this in the understanding of who, Christ's brethren, the sons brought to glory, the children mentioned truly are, and you will notice none of them are of the world, they all have God as their Father God, and it follows through with v14-15 as only the children get released from death as it is for the children of God Christ came and died to release them from bondage to sin and Satan. Christ only aids the seed of Abraham who are called as Isaac was, in ISAAC your SEED shall be CALLED, and this ties back into Romans 9 telling us those born of His Spirit are the only ones who are His children and only they get saved from His wrath.
    v11, they are all of one Family of God...

    Hebrews 2
    10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

    “I will declare Your name to My brethren;
    In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

    13 And again:

    “I will put My trust in Him.”

    And again:

    “Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

    14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
     
    #83 Scott Downey, Dec 9, 2020
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  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    According to what you claim for your self you must be a Jew for this to apply to you.
    MB
     
    #84 MB, Dec 9, 2020
  5. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    I appreciate the reply, but it doesn’t appear that you read my post first.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #85 Derf B, Dec 9, 2020
  6. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I suppose I dont understand what your saying.

    Just being Abraham's seed does not make you a child of God, you have to be called as Isaac was.
    So when Jesus saying to them I know you are Abraham's seed, that does not qualify them as having God as their father.

    Romans 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

    I did read your post and I don't see any indication Christ is including them as having God as their father.
    God can be their creator but not their Father.
     
    #86 Scott Downey, Dec 9, 2020
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  7. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    Being Abraham’s seed makes him their father in one sense, but not in another sense. That was Jesus’s point. God is everyone’s father in one sense (we all came from Adam, and Adam came from God: Luke 3:38 (KJV) Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.) But God is especially the father of some.
    Psalm 68:5 (KJV)
    A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, [is] God in his holy habitation.
    Which type of fatherhood is explained here:
    Psalm 146:9 (KJV)
    The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

    He is especially the father of Jesus Christ, and by implication, the Father of all those IN Jesus Christ.

    So He can be the father of all (everyone in the whole world) and not be the father of all (everyone) at the same time, just as the Jews in John 8 had Abraham as their father, and God as their father, and Satan as their father at the same time.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    #87 Derf B, Dec 9, 2020
  8. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    Jesus told us we must be born again to be saved, which implies you then have God as your father, you have become His child.
    Look at the context of Psalm 68, it is talking of the righteous who are His people, not the wicked.
    So yes God is the father of the fatherless of His people, not of all mankind.

    1 Let God arise,
    Let His enemies be scattered;
    Let those also who hate Him flee before Him.
    2 As smoke is driven away,
    So drive them away;
    As wax melts before the fire,
    So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
    3 But let the righteous be glad;
    Let them rejoice before God;
    Yes, let them rejoice exceedingly.

    4 Sing to God, sing praises to His name;
    Extol Him who rides on the clouds,
    By His name Yah,
    And rejoice before Him.

    5 A father of the fatherless, a defender of widows,
    Is God in His holy habitation.
    6 God sets the solitary in families;
    He brings out those who are bound into prosperity;
    But the rebellious dwell in a dry land.

    7 O God, when You went out before Your people,
    When You marched through the wilderness, Selah

    You can not have Satan and God as your father at the same time.
    Psalm 146 is also written the same way, about those who are of God.

    5 Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
    Whose hope is in the Lord his God,
     
    #88 Scott Downey, Dec 9, 2020
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  9. Derf B

    Derf B Active Member

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    And those that aren’t:
    Psalm 146:9 (KJV)
    The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.
     
    #89 Derf B, Dec 10, 2020
  10. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    All you can handle is baby food
    MB
     
    #90 MB, Dec 16, 2020
  11. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. He died for purpose to deliver the elect from this present evil world Gal 1:4

    4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
     
    #91 Brightfame52, Dec 19, 2020
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  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Still waiting for proof
    MB
     
    #92 MB, Dec 21, 2020
  13. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    The word all easily means all without it meaning all without exception. The word is the greek word pas:

    1. individually
      1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
    2. collectively

      1. some of all types
    So you can use the word all to define a particular collection of individuals' like all the Elect or Sheep or all the seed like Romans 4:16

    Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
     
    #93 Brightfame52, Dec 29, 2020
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  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The word "ALL" is still all inclusive.
    MB
     
    #94 MB, Dec 30, 2020
  15. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    We seen the definition of the word all.
     
    #95 Brightfame52, Dec 30, 2020
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    but you failed English and Comprehension.
    MB
     
    #96 MB, Dec 30, 2020
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, as defined by content, all would refers to all of the redeemed!
     
    #97 Yeshua1, Dec 30, 2020
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  18. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Only if it says so and it does not it says all men. Which means all men not all the elect or called but all men
    MB
     
    #98 MB, Jan 1, 2021
  19. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    All in scripture always means all, it just doesnt always mean all without exception ! However it always means all of something. For instance Jesus said Jn 6:37

    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
     
    #99 Brightfame52, Feb 8, 2021
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  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Context matters.
     
    #100 Reformed1689, Feb 8, 2021
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