• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Proof ALL does not mean all men

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

Derf B

Active Member
Scott Downey said:
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jesus told the unbelieving Jews, God was not their FATHER. So when you read of ALL in the new covenant having to do in context with believers, it means ALL of THEM only, not also ALL of the unbelieving world.
Click to expand...
Maybe the issue isn’t with the word “all”, but with the word “father”. Indeed, with four instances of “all” in the same verse, there’s plenty of useful context to query. If you’ve assert that “all” in the verse doesn’t mean “all men”, you also assert that God is NOT over all men. But can God be “father” to all without being “father” to some? Yes, if “father” can have a source meaning as well as an efficacy meaning. John demonstrates both meanings earlier in the chapter.

John 8:37-38 (KJV) 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed [father defined as source]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father [father defined in terms of efficacy].

Jesus was a master of equivalence. Try using the different definitions of “father” before you restrict the scope of “all” unnecessarily.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MB
S

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
Maybe the issue isn’t with the word “all”, but with the word “father”. Indeed, with four instances of “all” in the same verse, there’s plenty of useful context to query. If you’ve assert that “all” in the verse doesn’t mean “all men”, you also assert that God is NOT over all men. But can God be “father” to all without being “father” to some? Yes, if “father” can have a source meaning as well as an efficacy meaning. John demonstrates both meanings earlier in the chapter.

John 8:37-38 (KJV) 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed [father defined as source]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father [father defined in terms of efficacy].

Jesus was a master of equivalence. Try using the different definitions of “father” before you restrict the scope of “all” unnecessarily.
Click to expand...
Romans 9 clarifies further who are God's children. God's children would have God as their Father.
Paul specifically excludes the children of the flesh as being God's children, hence God is not their Father

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
 
S

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Read this in the understanding of who, Christ's brethren, the sons brought to glory, the children mentioned truly are, and you will notice none of them are of the world, they all have God as their Father God, and it follows through with v14-15 as only the children get released from death as it is for the children of God Christ came and died to release them from bondage to sin and Satan. Christ only aids the seed of Abraham who are called as Isaac was, in ISAAC your SEED shall be CALLED, and this ties back into Romans 9 telling us those born of His Spirit are the only ones who are His children and only they get saved from His wrath.
v11, they are all of one Family of God...

Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Scott Downey said:
Romans 9 clarifies further who are God's children. God's children would have God as their Father.
Paul specifically excludes the children of the flesh as being God's children, hence God is not their Father

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
Click to expand...
According to what you claim for your self you must be a Jew for this to apply to you.
MB
 
D

Derf B

Active Member
Scott Downey said:
Romans 9 clarifies further who are God's children. God's children would have God as their Father.
Paul specifically excludes the children of the flesh as being God's children, hence God is not their Father

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
Click to expand...

I appreciate the reply, but it doesn’t appear that you read my post first.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
S

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
I appreciate the reply, but it doesn’t appear that you read my post first.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Ok, I suppose I dont understand what your saying.

Just being Abraham's seed does not make you a child of God, you have to be called as Isaac was.
So when Jesus saying to them I know you are Abraham's seed, that does not qualify them as having God as their father.

Romans 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

I did read your post and I don't see any indication Christ is including them as having God as their father.
God can be their creator but not their Father.
 
D

Derf B

Active Member
Scott Downey said:
Ok, I suppose I dont understand what your saying.

Just being Abraham's seed does not make you a child of God, you have to be called as Isaac was.
So when Jesus saying to them I know you are Abraham's seed, that does not qualify them as having God as their father.

Romans 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

I did read your post and I don't see any indication Christ is including them as having God as their father.
God can be their creator but not their Father.
Click to expand...

Being Abraham’s seed makes him their father in one sense, but not in another sense. That was Jesus’s point. God is everyone’s father in one sense (we all came from Adam, and Adam came from God: Luke 3:38 (KJV) Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.) But God is especially the father of some.
Psalm 68:5 (KJV)
A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, [is] God in his holy habitation.
Which type of fatherhood is explained here:
Psalm 146:9 (KJV)
The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

He is especially the father of Jesus Christ, and by implication, the Father of all those IN Jesus Christ.

So He can be the father of all (everyone in the whole world) and not be the father of all (everyone) at the same time, just as the Jews in John 8 had Abraham as their father, and God as their father, and Satan as their father at the same time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
S

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Derf B said:
Being Abraham’s seed makes him their father in one sense, but not in another sense. That was Jesus’s point. God is everyone’s father in one sense (we all came from Adam, and Adam came from God: Luke 3:38 (KJV) Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.) But God is especially the father of some.
Psalm 68:5 (KJV)
A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, [is] God in his holy habitation.
Which type of fatherhood is explained here:
Psalm 146:9 (KJV)
The LORD preserveth the strangers; he relieveth the fatherless and widow: but the way of the wicked he turneth upside down.

He is especially the father of Jesus Christ, and by implication, the Father of all those IN Jesus Christ.

So He can be the father of all (everyone in the whole world) and not be the father of all (everyone) at the same time, just as the Jews in John 8 had Abraham as their father, and God as their father, and Satan as their father at the same time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Jesus told us we must be born again to be saved, which implies you then have God as your father, you have become His child.
Look at the context of Psalm 68, it is talking of the righteous who are His people, not the wicked.
So yes God is the father of the fatherless of His people, not of all mankind.

1 Let God arise,
Let His enemies be scattered;
Let those also who hate Him flee before Him.
2 As smoke is driven away,
So drive them away;
As wax melts before the fire,
So let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad;
Let them rejoice before God;
Yes, let them rejoice exceedingly.

4 Sing to God, sing praises to His name;
Extol Him who rides on the clouds,
By His name Yah,
And rejoice before Him.

5 A father of the fatherless, a defender of widows,
Is God in His holy habitation.
6 God sets the solitary in families;
He brings out those who are bound into prosperity;
But the rebellious dwell in a dry land.

7 O God, when You went out before Your people,
When You marched through the wilderness, Selah

You can not have Satan and God as your father at the same time.
Psalm 146 is also written the same way, about those who are of God.

5 Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in the Lord his God,
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Scott Downey said:
Ephesians 4
New King James Version
Walk in Unity
1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called,
2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;

5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jesus told the unbelieving Jews, God was not their FATHER. So when you read of ALL in the new covenant having to do in context with believers, it means ALL of THEM only, not also ALL of the unbelieving world.

John 8,
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Click to expand...
All you can handle is baby food
MB
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Scott Downey said:
Another proof Christ died for a purpose, that he died to bring the 'us' to God.
'us' here is the church to whom Peter writes. Peter is not writing to the unbelieving world.

1 Peter 3:17-19
New King James Version
17 For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
Click to expand...
Absolutely. He died for purpose to deliver the elect from this present evil world Gal 1:4

4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
MB said:
I do not see your proof that "all" does not mean All.It's seems ridiculous to say the word does not mean what it clearly means. If you say all the ducks then I know you're speaking of ducks only with no chickens involved. Yet it still means all it just doesn't include Chickens. If it says all men that is exactly what it means. If the word is by it's self it's meaning still means the same thing The word is all inclusive
MB
Click to expand...
The word all easily means all without it meaning all without exception. The word is the greek word pas:

  1. individually
    1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
  2. collectively

    1. some of all types
So you can use the word all to define a particular collection of individuals' like all the Elect or Sheep or all the seed like Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
The word all easily means all without it meaning all without exception. The word is the greek word pas:

  1. individually
    1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
  2. collectively
    1. some of all types
So you can use the word all to define a particular collection of individuals' like all the Elect or Sheep or all the seed like Romans 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Click to expand...
The word "ALL" is still all inclusive.
MB
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
All in scripture always means all, it just doesnt always mean all without exception ! However it always means all of something. For instance Jesus said Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top